Electric Vehicle Fires

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#3252574 24-Jun-2024 15:25

I did point out that there's likelihood and consequence. The consequence of a battery fire will be worse (when they burn, they burn hard).

The likelihood will be lower (fewer moving parts, fewer items retaining heat for any length of time)

I agree the Tesla in 2023 would've been a car fire whether it was an EV or not. Again, consequence side of the scale, not likelihood.

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robjg63

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#3252576 24-Jun-2024 15:30

BlakJak:

Well reported case in California

"Investigators confirmed that the fire was caused by the Tesla, and not by power from the house. The Vindum left the burnt remains of their Teslas on their driveway for two months waiting for a Tesla representative to investigate the cars, but according to the report it never occurred."

Tesla Fire on Auckland Harbour Bridge 2023

The California article also explicitly states that outright, there are fewer fires involving EV's than ICE's but 'very few of those fires occurred while parked'.

Anything can burn. Petrol and Hybrid cars are apparently much better at catching fire than an EV.

An EV is still less likely to catch fire. Yes - it will be harder to put out.

Second 'article' discussed here on geekzone no less - didn't just innocently burst into flames. Never expect actual journalism fro NZ news outlets.

But what's your point?

For every EV that catches fire it will be repeated in the news again and again (and again) - probably in multiple countries.

An old dunga petrol car on fire at the side of the Auckland motorway doesnt even make the news most of the time.

Again - what's your point?

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BlakJak

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#3252577 24-Jun-2024 15:31

My point was basically in the post immediately prior to yours.

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michaelmurfy

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#3252582 24-Jun-2024 15:42

BlakJak: The consequence of a battery fire will be worse (when they burn, they burn hard).

That also still depends on the battery chemistry (NCA vs LFP). I have a Tesla Model 3 Long Range in my driveway with a NCA battery in it and I know if that went up in flames it'll likely take the house with it but my insurance has not gone up because of that because the same would have happened with my previous Petrol car if it were to go up in flames also. A full tank of fuel when burnt will burn hard also and IMHO due to the explosive nature of this can be worse also.

LFP is far, far less likely to even combust (note, not saying it won't combust) and is in the majority of modern EV's on NZ roads like the standard range Tesla.

There is a whole lot of misinformation on the internet regarding EV batteries and trust me, I've seen it all but the amount of safety mechanisms in place in an EV along with the fact LFP batteries are far less likely to even combust really puts most of this misinformation to rest. The risk is there regardless of the energy source you've got in your garage.

The fact however there has not been an EV battery fire in New Zealand (or I believe, Australia either) but there have been plenty of fires caused by other vehicles.

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MikeFly

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#3252643 24-Jun-2024 16:29

@alasta Was that fire in Wellington?

Scott3

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#3252694 24-Jun-2024 16:48

The really sad think about this is because of the Title & Images near the top of the page, this is going to get picked up by those looking to push an anti EV agenda, many of whom are willing to distort the truth, and ignore the origin of the fire.

michaelmurfy:

I would like to state one fact before this gets out of control...

There has not been a single reported EV battery fire in NZ. EV fires are super rare.

Sure there has been other (indirect) cases of fires but I do not believe that fire was directly caused by the EV. There has been plenty of garage fires caused by internal combustion vehicles or indirectly by nearby flammable materials.

....

This isn't partially helpful either, it's mis-information in the other direction.

We have this one in (sadly fatal) in 2017:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/lithium-battery-fire-caused-glider-crash-that-killed-far-north-pilot/WVCSAPMETC3QASHXUX5AT5UY3M/

And of course we have a couple of fires thought to have originated in other parts of the EV other than the traction battery:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/130815615/fire-destroys-new-ev-in-wellington-car-company-launches-investigation

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/125008447/occupants-lucky-escape-as-vehicle-destroyed-in-highway-blaze

And a near miss:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/130148546/electric-car-doused-by-firefighters-after-smoking-battery-hits-thermal-runaway

Plus the well published tesla on harbor bridge situation (drunk driver driving a crashed car until the tire caught fire)

robjg63:

I have a Tesla mobile connector (home charger ie the kind that goes in a 10 or 15A residential wall plug).

It started off by only ever maxxing out at 8A and one day surprised me when I noticed it was drawing 10A.

Apparently a software update to the car had pushed out an update to the charger that said that it could do the full 10A on a regular power outlet.

(Who knew the charger had smarts in it?)

It seems that there was a 'code of practice' rather than a law in AU/NZ that a 10A power outlet should stick to about 80% of its rated value.

At some stage the 'wisdom' changed to 'if its rated at 10A it should be able to take 10A all day long' - which it should.

You can buy 2.2-2.3kw plug in home heaters after all - so there are off the shelf 10A appliances out there.

Perhaps 10A for multiple hours was too much for this situation.

PS. The Tesla charger comes with 2 'tails' ie short power adapter that connects the charger to the wall plug. The 15A plug has a wider earth pin so it will only fit in a 15A wall outlet.

So you shouldnt be able to plug in a 15A changer to a 10A outlet unless you have some dodgy wiring:

10A sockets are rated for 10A continuous. (as are 15A socket's for 15A).

However regarding 15A sockets, in the early days of EV (where it was common to smash the Japan plug off the factory Leaf chargers, preserving the thermocouple, or defeating it with a resister, resulting in it drawing about 14A), it was found out that 15A sockets held up poorly to this kind of continuous load.

No photo description available.

Hence why blue caravan plug (16A rated, but hold up much better to continuous loads in the real world), because the defacto EV charging connation, until a decent market for EV chargers sprung up.

The 8A from a 10A socket unless you have thermal monitoring comes from the worksafe EV charging guidelines.

https://www.worksafe.govt.nz/laws-and-regulations/regulations/electrical-regulations/regulatory-guidance-notes/electric-vehicle-charging-safety-guidelines/

While they are "just" guidelines, given they come from the government, a decent chunk (but not all of the industry chose) to follow them. (except most installers will just use a type A RCD where an EVSE has integral DC leakage protection).

Note AS/NZS 3112 15A is not listed as an acceptable plug type.

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alasta

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#3252701 24-Jun-2024 17:16

MikeFly:

@alasta Was that fire in Wellington?

Yes, that's correct.

MikeFly

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#3252756 24-Jun-2024 18:04

Thought so. I think this is the battery from that car https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/car-parts-accessories/parts-other-makes/electrics/listing/4686945323?archive=1

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#3252783 24-Jun-2024 19:52

MikeFly:

Thought so. I think this is the battery from that car https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/car-parts-accessories/parts-other-makes/electrics/listing/4686945323?archive=1

this makes me think more highly of the Tesla, the car was burnt to a pulp yet the battery looks brand new

RunningMan

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#3252785 24-Jun-2024 20:06

MikeFly:

Thought so. I think this is the battery from that car https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/car-parts-accessories/parts-other-makes/electrics/listing/4686945323?archive=1

If it is that car, then it's really just a garage fire that happened to have an EV in it. Given it's the battery that makes an EV fire notable, and that battery is clearly intact from the outside, other than heat damage to connectors etc.

michaelmurfy

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#3252853 24-Jun-2024 23:45

@Scott3: This isn't partially helpful either, it's mis-information in the other direction.

We have this one in (sadly fatal) in 2017:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/lithium-battery-fire-caused-glider-crash-that-killed-far-north-pilot/WVCSAPMETC3QASHXUX5AT5UY3M/

You know that one is quite different compared to a modern EV battery. That glider has a 20 Ah battery and I highly doubt it is liquid cooled or anything and is more akin to others used on aircraft and even model aircraft (pouch style).

And of course we have a couple of fires thought to have originated in other parts of the EV other than the traction battery:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/130815615/fire-destroys-new-ev-in-wellington-car-company-launches-investigation

From the front indicating not an EV battery fire.

I can also link you to many recalls of ICE vehicles due to fire risk of a loose 12v battery like Toyota recently had: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/toyota-is-recalling-1-8-million-rav4s-due-to-12-v-battery-fire-risk/

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/125008447/occupants-lucky-escape-as-vehicle-destroyed-in-highway-blaze

Hybrid, not an EV. It was later confirmed to be caused by an internal combustion engine overheat / fault.

And a near miss:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/130148546/electric-car-doused-by-firefighters-after-smoking-battery-hits-thermal-runaway

I'll give you that one however there was not actually thermal runway but instead was more precautionary. If it were thermal runaway it would be up in flames well before fire crew made it there.

Plus the well published tesla on harbor bridge situation (drunk driver driving a crashed car until the tire caught fire)

As you stated, it was not caused by any EV component and could have happened to any other vehicle also. The battery was actually fine on that car too.

All this has been posted many, many times mainly by Anti EV folk. Hence why I said:

There has not been a single reported EV battery fire in NZ. EV fires are super rare.

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#3252888 25-Jun-2024 09:07

I asked my firefighter neighbour once, what the causes for house fires are. His answer:

1) Human error

2) Electrical blankets and heaters

3) Anything electrical

Insurances have looked at vehicle fires in detail when EVs came along. They need this data to calculate their insurance rates. The result was that EV's were by far the least prone to burn. Followed by petrol cars and -oddly- hybrids were unproportionally high in incendiary rates. (https://charge.net.nz/knowledge-article/ev-myths/)

As for this case, a 32A car charger puts your switchboard and infrastructure under more load than normal. If the install wasn't done properly a fault will likely cause a fire not just smouldering. e.g. loose connection or not using an RCD as a fuse. Also some of the switchboards are 50+ years old and are missing a lot of the modern protections.

I have also talked to my local firefighters and most stations have now had training in how to deal with EVs, where to cut power and how to extinguish (you pretty much can't at the moment in NZ)

Oh and if you want to get scared research fires of electric bicycles!

Obraik

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#3252896 25-Jun-2024 09:51

The irony of making a post about "ideological beliefs" when the OP is jumping to conclusions simply from looking at a fire rather than waiting for facts from the fire investigators.

If the fire had started from the EV, that garage with the EV in it would not look that intact (nor would the car itself). I suspect that the battery never even caught fire based on how that car looks.

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CYaBro

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#3252911 25-Jun-2024 10:45

All the anti-EV brigade jump to conclusions when there's any fire that could even remotely have been caused by an EV.

The big parking structure fire that happened at Luton airport last year was blamed on an EV by them and they tried to prove this with photos and 'evidence' of how the fire burned.

In March this year the investigators released their report and it says that the fire was started by a diesel vehicle and stated that ‘it was not a mild hybrid, plug-in hybrid or electric vehicle’, quashing widespread internet claims that the blaze was started by a battery-powered model.

So now the anti-EV brigade are saying it's a cover up. 🤣

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robjg63

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#3252916 25-Jun-2024 10:48

CYaBro:

All the anti-EV brigade jump to conclusions when there's any fire that could even remotely have been caused by an EV.

The big parking structure fire that happened at Luton airport last year was blamed on an EV by them and they tried to prove this with photos and 'evidence' of how the fire burned.

In March this year the investigators released their report and it says that the fire was started by a diesel vehicle and stated that ‘it was not a mild hybrid, plug-in hybrid or electric vehicle’, quashing widespread internet claims that the blaze was started by a battery-powered model.

So now the anti-EV brigade are saying it's a cover up. 🤣

And the media wont be too interested in publishing a retraction of the original 'article'.

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