7 seater used for towing and daily driver

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34 posts

Geek

#2061101 23-Jul-2018 16:23

cshwone: Why not have a look at the Kia’s such as the Sportage. Real bang for your buck and available in petrol and non CVT

Cheers I will have a look

Geektastic

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#2061136 23-Jul-2018 17:36

Not sure if it would fit the bill but the earlier Land Rover Discoveries are in budget and will tow with consummate ease your trailer, as well as seating 7.

ObidiahSlope

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Ultimate Geek

#2061147 23-Jul-2018 18:14

I see you will be using your new vehicle for towing.

Make sure you find out if the transmission is a double clutch transmission. Looking at the driver controls you can not tell. If it is so make inquiries and investigate if will be suitable for your use case.

Double clutch transmissions have a history of failures when used at low speed under load such as backing a trailer uphill into a driveway.

There is nothing wrong with double clutch transmissions normally except where you are using them as above.

Obsequious hypocrite

Batman

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#2061153 23-Jul-2018 18:36

ObidiahSlope:

I see you will be using your new vehicle for towing.

Make sure you find out if the transmission is a double clutch transmission. Looking at the driver controls you can not tell. If it is so make inquiries and investigate if will be suitable for your use case.

Double clutch transmissions have a history of failures when used at low speed under load such as backing a trailer uphill into a driveway.

There is nothing wrong with double clutch transmissions normally except where you are using them as above.

The chances of getting a 7 seater with a double clutch transmission for 15k is about .... rare as hen's teeth.

crocodile

34 posts

Geek

#2061164 23-Jul-2018 18:58

Geektastic:

Not sure if it would fit the bill but the earlier Land Rover Discoveries are in budget and will tow with consummate ease your trailer, as well as seating 7.

I would love to get a Land Rover, but I think that a Japanese vehicle is probably best for spares and repair costs

crocodile

34 posts

Geek

#2061165 23-Jul-2018 18:58

ObidiahSlope:

I see you will be using your new vehicle for towing.

Make sure you find out if the transmission is a double clutch transmission. Looking at the driver controls you can not tell. If it is so make inquiries and investigate if will be suitable for your use case.

Double clutch transmissions have a history of failures when used at low speed under load such as backing a trailer uphill into a driveway.

There is nothing wrong with double clutch transmissions normally except where you are using them as above.

Cheers, will take that in consideration

crocodile

34 posts

Geek

#2061436 24-Jul-2018 07:25

Batman: I'm always wary about CVTs because of how they are supposed to work.

It's a couple of belts pulling/spinning a cone. How does a belt spin a cone when tremendous forces are at play? By having some hooks and ridges and a huge clamping force applied via special fluids.

I'm going to guess that it may tow fine now, but it won't for very long.

That is my concern as well.

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Geektastic

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#2061607 24-Jul-2018 10:57

crocodile:

Geektastic:

Not sure if it would fit the bill but the earlier Land Rover Discoveries are in budget and will tow with consummate ease your trailer, as well as seating 7.

I would love to get a Land Rover, but I think that a Japanese vehicle is probably best for spares and repair costs

It depends on how new the LR is.

The older, more simple ones (such as the 4 door Range Rover pre- 96, early S1 and S2 Discos) are pretty straightforward devices which can easily be worked on by competent independents or non-main dealer LR specialists like Bramble Downs 4x4 in Auckland.

The later ones get more complex it is fair to say.

I still have a hankering for a good condition pre-96 4 door as a classic weekender.

Batman

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#2061612 24-Jul-2018 11:06

Geektastic:

crocodile:

Geektastic:

Not sure if it would fit the bill but the earlier Land Rover Discoveries are in budget and will tow with consummate ease your trailer, as well as seating 7.

I would love to get a Land Rover, but I think that a Japanese vehicle is probably best for spares and repair costs

It depends on how new the LR is.

The older, more simple ones (such as the 4 door Range Rover pre- 96, early S1 and S2 Discos) are pretty straightforward devices which can easily be worked on by competent independents or non-main dealer LR specialists like Bramble Downs 4x4 in Auckland.

The later ones get more complex it is fair to say.

I still have a hankering for a good condition pre-96 4 door as a classic weekender.

It may be the luck of the draw, but all the owners of older simple LRs I know, their LRs spend most of the time at the mechanic's garage, maybe it's a kind of retirement village.

MikeAqua

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#2061622 24-Jul-2018 11:22

Batman:

It may be the luck of the draw, but all the owners of older simple LRs I know, their LRs spend most of the time at the mechanic's garage, maybe it's a kind of retirement village.

That was my experience (SII 'Estate'), except instead of a mechanic it was me. Brakes were a nightmare to keep correctly adjusted. To be fair, most of the problems (apart from the brakes) were caused by the after market engine - Chevrolet V8.

Mike

Scott3

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#2062441 25-Jul-2018 16:57

crocodile:

We are looking to buy a car to tow our 750kg camper trailer, but mostly it will be a daily driver.

We require the following:

2.0 to 2.4L (4 cylinder but may consider 2.5 V6)

7 seater (not so much for the seats but for the space)

Automatic gearbox, not CVT

Budget of around $15K

We have a shortlist but open to suggestions:

Subaru Exiga 2.5 (apparently these have CVT gearboxes)

Toyota Vanguard (apparently the 2.4 version only comes out in CVT)

Honda Odyssey Absolute

Mitsubishi Outlander

Mazda MPV

Any suggestions or experience would be welcomed

Regarding engine size:

Don't get too hung up on engine size, Focus on other metric such as power, torque and fuel consumption instead. Note that having an very small engine pushing around a large vehicle leads to the engine working quite hard, and not realizing the expected fuel savings. Especially if you are going to be loaded a lot of the time.

Regarding seating capacity:

I would avoid using number of seats are a proxy for load space. Some 5 seat wagons have great cargo space, and some SUV's are available in 5 & 7 seat configuration's. 5 seat configurations generally a cheaper and have more space in the boot.

Note that resale on 7 seat vehicle's is often a bit better.

Regarding towing:

750kg isn't a very heavy load as towing goes, so you should be able to find a suitable car with relative ease, especially if it has breakes. That said, it is exactly the upper limit of "unbreaked" tow ratings in NZ, and if the trailer dosn't have breaks, may fall outside manufacturer's specifications for some cars. (for example my older 1.8 corolla hatchback has an unbreaked tow rating of 450kg, and braked tow rating of 1300k, and my older lexus hybrid suv has an unbreaked tow rating of 700kg, and breaked tow rating of 1500kg).

It is not illegal to exceed manufacture tow ratings on light vehicles, and most insurance companies don't exclude cover (although some commercial policies do). That said, if you are buying a car for the purpose of towing, might as well work within manufactures tow ratings.

Note that it is always tempting to add more stuff to trailers when you go away on holiday, so your weight could climb a bit.

Especially if your trailer not breaked, it is nicer to tow with a heavier vehicle as the trailer will push it around less, and have a lesser impact on stopping distance.

Many vehicle have suspension in the rear that sags dramatically when you attach a trailer, an put a few bags in the boot... some vehicles are worse than others, but can be rectified with stiffer rear springs or air bags.

Regarding Transmissions:

There is nothing wrong with using a CVT for towing. Many CVT vehicles are rated for towing. (for example, the current generaton 2.0L and 2.4L are rated for 1600kg of breaked towing).

Regarding cooling, both CVT's and auto's can get hot when towing, leading to the fluid being degraded, and needing sooner replacement. If you are going to be doing a lot of towing, and this is a concern, you have a supplementary transmission cooler fitted like the one below. This is a good idea for towing in conventional auto's and CVT's if the car dosn't come from the factory with a dedicated transmission cooler (many share the engine cooling system).

http://www.supercheapauto.co.nz/Product/Davies-Craig-Hydra-Cool-Transmission-Oil-Cooler-Universal-6-Cylinder/125647?menuFrom=1021602

Note that many auto car's have instructions in the manual not to use top gear (overdrive) while towing. This is very common, but does lead to increased fuel consumption and noise when towing. CVT's generally don't have this restriction.

Regarding vehicle options:

I would check out the following:

New shape outlander cira 2013/2014. (unless you go diesel, you will end up with a CVT transmission though). Heaps of these for sale just under your budget at the moment, I would be looking at a 2.4L, 4wd, as fuel consumption is similar, and the extra power would make towing more comfortable (fuel consumption is rated at 7.2L/100km as compared to 6.8L/100km for the 2.0L 2wd). Rated for 750kg unbreaked, and 1600kg breaked towing. A family member has a previous generation 2.4 outlander that has done great, heaps of towing (mostly a 1500kg boat). Main issues with that generation are that it is noisy on the open road, and the rear suspension is really soft.

i.e.: https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/mitsubishi/auction-1664333499.htm?rsqid=fb14305747074d569c6e55789bd86a93

Toyota avensis wagon 2.0L. Rated 500kg unbreaked, 1800kg breaked. Will give a car like driving experience, with a massive boot. (bigger than many 7 seaters).

i.e. https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/toyota/auction-1707779742.htm?rsqid=8a79880d33834b768640f31828430004

crocodile

34 posts

Geek

#2062573 25-Jul-2018 20:42

Scott3:

crocodile:

We are looking to buy a car to tow our 750kg camper trailer, but mostly it will be a daily driver.

We require the following:

2.0 to 2.4L (4 cylinder but may consider 2.5 V6)

7 seater (not so much for the seats but for the space)

Automatic gearbox, not CVT

Budget of around $15K

We have a shortlist but open to suggestions:

Subaru Exiga 2.5 (apparently these have CVT gearboxes)

Toyota Vanguard (apparently the 2.4 version only comes out in CVT)

Honda Odyssey Absolute

Mitsubishi Outlander

Mazda MPV

Any suggestions or experience would be welcomed

Regarding engine size:

Don't get too hung up on engine size, Focus on other metric such as power, torque and fuel consumption instead. Note that having an very small engine pushing around a large vehicle leads to the engine working quite hard, and not realizing the expected fuel savings. Especially if you are going to be loaded a lot of the time.

Regarding seating capacity:

I would avoid using number of seats are a proxy for load space. Some 5 seat wagons have great cargo space, and some SUV's are available in 5 & 7 seat configuration's. 5 seat configurations generally a cheaper and have more space in the boot.

Note that resale on 7 seat vehicle's is often a bit better.

Regarding towing:

750kg isn't a very heavy load as towing goes, so you should be able to find a suitable car with relative ease, especially if it has breakes. That said, it is exactly the upper limit of "unbreaked" tow ratings in NZ, and if the trailer dosn't have breaks, may fall outside manufacturer's specifications for some cars. (for example my older 1.8 corolla hatchback has an unbreaked tow rating of 450kg, and braked tow rating of 1300k, and my older lexus hybrid suv has an unbreaked tow rating of 700kg, and breaked tow rating of 1500kg).

It is not illegal to exceed manufacture tow ratings on light vehicles, and most insurance companies don't exclude cover (although some commercial policies do). That said, if you are buying a car for the purpose of towing, might as well work within manufactures tow ratings.

Note that it is always tempting to add more stuff to trailers when you go away on holiday, so your weight could climb a bit.

Especially if your trailer not breaked, it is nicer to tow with a heavier vehicle as the trailer will push it around less, and have a lesser impact on stopping distance.

Many vehicle have suspension in the rear that sags dramatically when you attach a trailer, an put a few bags in the boot... some vehicles are worse than others, but can be rectified with stiffer rear springs or air bags.

Regarding Transmissions:

There is nothing wrong with using a CVT for towing. Many CVT vehicles are rated for towing. (for example, the current generaton 2.0L and 2.4L are rated for 1600kg of breaked towing).

Regarding cooling, both CVT's and auto's can get hot when towing, leading to the fluid being degraded, and needing sooner replacement. If you are going to be doing a lot of towing, and this is a concern, you have a supplementary transmission cooler fitted like the one below. This is a good idea for towing in conventional auto's and CVT's if the car dosn't come from the factory with a dedicated transmission cooler (many share the engine cooling system).

http://www.supercheapauto.co.nz/Product/Davies-Craig-Hydra-Cool-Transmission-Oil-Cooler-Universal-6-Cylinder/125647?menuFrom=1021602

Note that many auto car's have instructions in the manual not to use top gear (overdrive) while towing. This is very common, but does lead to increased fuel consumption and noise when towing. CVT's generally don't have this restriction.

Regarding vehicle options:

I would check out the following:

New shape outlander cira 2013/2014. (unless you go diesel, you will end up with a CVT transmission though). Heaps of these for sale just under your budget at the moment, I would be looking at a 2.4L, 4wd, as fuel consumption is similar, and the extra power would make towing more comfortable (fuel consumption is rated at 7.2L/100km as compared to 6.8L/100km for the 2.0L 2wd). Rated for 750kg unbreaked, and 1600kg breaked towing. A family member has a previous generation 2.4 outlander that has done great, heaps of towing (mostly a 1500kg boat). Main issues with that generation are that it is noisy on the open road, and the rear suspension is really soft.

i.e.: https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/mitsubishi/auction-1664333499.htm?rsqid=fb14305747074d569c6e55789bd86a93

Toyota avensis wagon 2.0L. Rated 500kg unbreaked, 1800kg breaked. Will give a car like driving experience, with a massive boot. (bigger than many 7 seaters).

i.e. https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/toyota/auction-1707779742.htm?rsqid=8a79880d33834b768640f31828430004

Cheers mate

Your comments are highly appreciated.

I do agree with you on the seats, but have found that generally 7 seaters have a slightly longer wheelbase to allow for the extra seats.

I am still hesitant about towing with a CVT, as I had a real bad experience with my LaFesta

Batman

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#2062579 25-Jul-2018 20:47

on the other hand I have found 7 seaters not to have longer wheel bases, and you just have seats that are not very useful

Scott3

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#2062719 26-Jul-2018 00:39

crocodile:

Cheers mate

Your comments are highly appreciated.

I do agree with you on the seats, but have found that generally 7 seaters have a slightly longer wheelbase to allow for the extra seats.

I am still hesitant about towing with a CVT, as I had a real bad experience with my LaFesta.

In the SUV category, where both 5 and 7 seater's are offered, the wheelbase is generally identical (Outlander, Santa Fe etc), 3rd row seats are between the wheel arches. In the wagon category, the Subaru legacy has the same wheel base as the Subaru Exiga (although the latter higher roof line will give more cargo space).

It is only really if you jump to the people mover space, or if you are using "7-seater" to separate out the rav4 sized SUV's from highlander sized suv's.

With the CVT's, some are just bad. Nissan owns a stake in a company called Jatco, which is renowned for making unreliable CVT's. Other brand's have run cvt's for years with minimal issues.

That said, you have a decent budget, so can have what you want. I can understand having had a bad experience before, that you would be reluctant. That said, CVT's are real common in the small engine, larger vehicle space that you are looking at (they are cheap to build, and give decent fuel economy). Excluding them cuts your options down, but there are still be plenty of options around.

crocodile

34 posts

Geek

#2062743 26-Jul-2018 07:57

Batman:

on the other hand I have found 7 seaters not to have longer wheel bases, and you just have seats that are not very useful

True, I have seen a few of those that won't even fit small children

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