ACT bans "petrol and diesel" new car sales from 2035

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › ACT bans "petrol and diesel" new car sales from 2035

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389 posts

Ultimate Geek

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#2945412 22-Jul-2022 16:19

tweake:

not really, timing matters a lot.

6:30 is when a lot of cars would be charging. so it adds to the peak demand.

Strong disagree.

Add some smarts, and cost incentives to load shift to the wee hours is all it takes. That already happens, as I pay 50% less for my overnight power.

As I said, there's a lot of hand waving in those numbers, but people freak out about it, and it's clearly not warranted.

Obraik

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#2945415 22-Jul-2022 16:23

networkn:

As was already explained above, currently does not equal always.

It's very likely power stations will end up taking longer to build than projected.

Sure, but we're not at the limit right now so delays aren't a big deal.

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mkissin

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#2945417 22-Jul-2022 16:25

For everybody's reference, those emergency notices are available here: Formal Notices | Transpower

There has only been one incident this year, on the 23rd of June, where from about 7am to 9am there was potentially too little generation.

Note that it's (unsurprisingly) at the morning peak.

tweake

2391 posts

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#2945420 22-Jul-2022 16:30

mkissin:

tweake:

not really, timing matters a lot.

6:30 is when a lot of cars would be charging. so it adds to the peak demand.

Strong disagree.

Add some smarts, and cost incentives to load shift to the wee hours is all it takes. That already happens, as I pay 50% less for my overnight power.

As I said, there's a lot of hand waving in those numbers, but people freak out about it, and it's clearly not warranted.

but thats going to depend on setup.

talking to mate sparkie who tells me the power co are limiting the amount of ev chargers in each street. that tells me the local network will not handle the loads (they won't even upgrade my connection). of course peoples use of ev's dictates how much charge they need. theres a lot of if's buts and maybes. but if they want fast adoption they better hurry up with the infrastructure to match the demand.

Dingbatt

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#2945422 22-Jul-2022 16:31

Echo echo echo. Same chamber, same voices, just a different label on the outside.

So to pull the thread back onto topic somewhat.

I wonder if this sort of pronouncement (the ACT one) will face legal challenge?

I have just been watching some videos on the Australian couple taking the Victoria State Government to court over the EV levy they charge on EVs and PHEVs. Essentially a road user charge. Of course the State government has infinite funds to spend on the case, but in true Aussie battler fashion, EV owners from across the country have donated to the couple to fund their case.

One of the principal arguments is that such a tax is a federal matter and not a state one. So unsurprisingly, the other Australian states have registered as interested parties on the side of the Victorian government, and the federal government has done likewise on the side of the couple. Both sides fearing this case will set a precedent for federal vs state powers, particularly with respect to taxation.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

mkissin

389 posts

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#2945423 22-Jul-2022 16:33

tweake:

but thats going to depend on setup.

talking to mate sparkie who tells me the power co are limiting the amount of ev chargers in each street. that tells me the local network will not handle the loads (they won't even upgrade my connection). of course peoples use of ev's dictates how much charge they need. theres a lot of if's buts and maybes. but if they want fast adoption they better hurry up with the infrastructure to match the demand.

Chargers are just an appliance. There's literally no mechanism for that to happen.

I work in EV charging, and deal with this stuff all the time.

Handle9

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#2945424 22-Jul-2022 16:33

New Zealand does have a generation issue but it’s more around peakers than total capacity.

It will get worse as some capacity gets taken out of the system in the next couple of years. It can be fixed but with the current structure there isn’t a great deal of incentive for many of the power companies.

I’m so glad “the market” is taking care of New Zealand’s electricity network. It’s done a great job for shareholders, not so much for consumers.

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richms

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#2945432 22-Jul-2022 16:52

tweake:

not really, timing matters a lot.

6:30 is when a lot of cars would be charging. so it adds to the peak demand.

they could do smart charging and delay the charging until after the peak, but then you run into issues like people will need fast chargers, extending the peak power demand and also possibility of customers not getting their cars charged up in time. keep in mind people may not be able to have fast chargers installed.

there is not just supply issue but also network issues, especially local network and home connection. however the amount of people that will buy the rather expensive ev's is not a lot, so there is time to add to the network.

Then they need to incentivize people to move their charging to off peak times with lower rates, or allow for people to get supply upgrades are less absurd prices than the current costing that they want to swap out a main for a larger one.

Richard rich.ms

PolicyGuy

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#2945434 22-Jul-2022 16:59

tweake:

talking to mate sparkie who tells me the power co are limiting the amount of ev chargers in each street. that tells me the local network will not handle the loads (they won't even upgrade my connection). of course peoples use of ev's dictates how much charge they need. theres a lot of if's buts and maybes. but if they want fast adoption they better hurry up with the infrastructure to match the demand.

You need to get a new 'mate sparkie', this one's talking complete bollix

Neither the local lines company nor the electricity retailer has any way of knowing that an EVSE has been installed in any house.
The homeowner buys an EVSE, gets a sparky to install it, then the sparky writes up a Certificate of Compliance - one copy to MBIE with the fee, once copy to the homeowner to file, one copy the sparky keeps.
Absolutely no information goes to the local line company or the electricity retailer.

The only way the local lines company can find out is if the house needs an upgrade to its mains supply to accommodate an EVSE. If you had an all-electric house on a standard 63A mains fuse and wanted to add a 32A EVSE, you might need an upgrade. The lines company might or might not be happy to do that, depending on the state of their 415V local distribution network.

The only way the retailer can find out is is the homeowner asks for an "EV" tariff.

tweake

2391 posts

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#2945438 22-Jul-2022 17:15

PolicyGuy:

The only way the local lines company can find out is if the house needs an upgrade to its mains supply to accommodate an EVSE. If you had an all-electric house on a standard 63A mains fuse and wanted to add a 32A EVSE, you might need an upgrade. The lines company might or might not be happy to do that, depending on the state of their 415V local distribution network.

i suspect thats the case. most houses here are only 60 amp connection. i can't even get a lines upgrade to run decent tools. with the amount of housing development going on, i think its stretching the infrastructure a bit. even at work we where notified they where going to swap out the main transformer a couple of times now.

tweake

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#2945443 22-Jul-2022 17:26

richms:

Then they need to incentivize people to move their charging to off peak times with lower rates, or allow for people to get supply upgrades are less absurd prices than the current costing that they want to swap out a main for a larger one.

yes as a bandaid. if you limit people to off peak then you may annoy those who need long charge times or need charging at other times (eg work night shift). then people will be pushing for fast chargers and wanting connection upgrades.

however that all depends on rate of adoption and how fast they can mitigate issues as they arise. i'm sure there will be areas that will have far higher ev adoption than others.

PolicyGuy

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#2945460 22-Jul-2022 18:14

A 16A "blue caravan" plug will charge at between 3 & 3.5 kWh/hr.

At 3 kWh/hr, a charge at night rate from 11pm to 6am will get 21kWh into your BEV's battery, and if you use shoulder times from 9pm to 11pm & 6am to 7am you'd get another 9kWh in, total 30kWh.

For most people, most of the time (I suspect the vast majority of people, almost all the time) that will be enough to cope with the weekday commute and comfortably keep their battery in the 20% to 80% of full charge state.

Very few houses should have such a precarious mains supply that they can't take an extra 16A any time, let alone through the night hours. Of course, some people will be daily driving distances where they'll actually need a 32A or better EVSE to recover overnight, and that might be an expensive investment

Scott3

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#2945462 22-Jul-2022 18:20

Batman:

https://www.drive.com.au/news/official-act-to-ban-ice-cars-from-2035/

Following leaked information earlier this week, the Australian Capital Territory has confirmed it will become the nation's first jurisdiction to impose an expiry date on new petrol and diesel car sales.

(Not sure if includes hybrid or not)

Key is this bottom bit.

I like Japan, hybrids (including non plug in hybrids) are allowed, then this means basically nothing from a consumer point of view. As an example, Toyota will have a hybrid (or electric) offering for every model in the near future, so all those vehicles will not be impacted.

If it is EV & PHEV (+ hydrogen) only, like the UK in 2030, then it is a bit more of a serious step, but as above, there will be a good range of PHEV's with similar or better ranges to todays car.

If it is full EV (+Hydrogen) like the UK in 2035, then this is huge. Likely will be a period where those with challenging use cases will need to rely on existing / used vehicles, until technology catches up with their use cases.

WyleECoyoteNZ

1049 posts

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#2945489 22-Jul-2022 21:33

mkissin:

For everybody's reference, those emergency notices are available here: Formal Notices | Transpower

There has only been one incident this year, on the 23rd of June, where from about 7am to 9am there was potentially too little generation.

Note that it's (unsurprisingly) at the morning peak.

And 2 informal \ informational 'warnings'.

1 on the 28th June

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/transpower-warns-of-low-electricity-generation-tonight-after-less-wind-power-available/DMBGHD5C3BVTZSNUCPW2ASKRPY/

And another on the 5th July

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/transpower-warns-of-grid-problems-if-the-situation-worsens/44QYMZIKLTNXZW2FXAAQI7OWNY/

Journeyman

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#2945491 22-Jul-2022 21:49

Obraik:

Journeyman:

EVs seem like swapping one problem for another 🤔

What problem are they swapping for?

Well... they're still mining crap out of the ground for lithium and cobalt. Doing that isn't green. Then there's the human rights abuse of the people in the Congo who are mining that stuff.

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