EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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8345 posts

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#2702327 5-May-2021 14:20

Jaxson:

Real risk now is the hydrogen discussion.

With current battery capacity for private vehicles I cannot really see a gap that hydrogen can fill....

Hydrogen is beginning to sound a lot like Nuclear Fusion, its always a few years before its economic..... Its also providing fig leaves to the Gas industry for plants like this....

I cannot see how it can ever be economic to electrolyse hydrogen from electricity, compress, cool and transport the hydrogen vast distances and then burn it to make electricity...

Australia's first net-zero hybrid power station gets the green light

"Australia's first power plant — capable of running on both hydrogen and natural gas — will be built in NSW, following an agreement between the private sector and both state and federal governments."

EnergyAustralia will offer to buy 200,000 kg of green hydrogen per year from 2025 which is equivalent to five per cent of the plant's fuel use

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-04/australia-first-net-zero-hybrid-power-station/100113910

jarledb

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#2702331 5-May-2021 14:23

I think it is very telling that Toyota now has come around to EVs - they were very adamant for a long time that Hydrogen was the answer.

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timbosan

2160 posts

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#2702332 5-May-2021 14:23

tdgeek:

Obraik:

There's Tesla's with over 500,000km on a pack and they're still 90%+

Is that a general guide for all EV's? Someone the other day was asking about his 2013 Leaf that was 80 odd %. Less kwH battery size so probably double the cycles, but I doubt it had done massive mileage

That was me asking - 8 bars and it had done 87K, so slightly less than the 500k's on the Tesla :-) Also I had the option to get the Leaf cheap, which changes the dynamics of the decision (to me anyway), plus I just wanted it as a car for driving local, no motorway and no long distances.

frankv

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#2702338 5-May-2021 14:32

wellygary:

I cannot see how it can ever be economic to electrolyse hydrogen from electricity, compress, cool and transport the hydrogen vast distances and then burn it to make electricity...

Most hydrogen is produced by steam reformation (CH4 + H2O + energy -> CO + 3 H2) of natural gas, not by electrolysis of water. Who knows, like the Motunui gas-to-gasoline plant, it might be economical if the natural gas is free. I'm not sure what they do with the CO... probably burn it to make the steam. ;)

wellygary

8345 posts

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#2702343 5-May-2021 14:37

frankv:

wellygary:

I cannot see how it can ever be economic to electrolyse hydrogen from electricity, compress, cool and transport the hydrogen vast distances and then burn it to make electricity...

Most hydrogen is produced by steam reformation (CH4 + H2O + energy -> CO + 3 H2) of natural gas, not by electrolysis of water. Who knows, like the Motunui gas-to-gasoline plant, it might be economical if the natural gas is free. I'm not sure what they do with the CO... probably burn it to make the steam. ;)

Yes, but that wont cut it for "green hydrogen" which is the current buzzword everyone is hitching their press statements to...As far as I am aware you can only do that via electrolysis...

HarmLessSolutions

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#2702349 5-May-2021 14:48

SaltyNZ:

Jaxson:

Real risk now is the hydrogen discussion.

I don't personally think hydrogen will ever the answer for mass market vehicles. Special-purpose/professionally driven vehicles like trucks, buses, maybe even aircraft yes, but not cars.

There do not appear to be any good potential solutions to the problems of storage and handling. Either you have super-high-pressure gas or super cold liquid. Either way you need hoses and connectors that can stand being used by idiots 500 times a day without exploding or splashing cryogenic fluids everywhere. Petrol & diesel aren't exactly inert, but they're safe enough that you have to put in some effort to kill yourself with them.

Some interesting discussion on transportation of hydrogen in this article. Plenty of challenges.

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/03/17/overlooked-supply-chain-enters-australias-green-hydrogen-export-mix/

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

frankv

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#2702383 5-May-2021 16:02

wellygary:

frankv:

Most hydrogen is produced by steam reformation (CH4 + H2O + energy -> CO + 3 H2) of natural gas, not by electrolysis of water. Who knows, like the Motunui gas-to-gasoline plant, it might be economical if the natural gas is free. I'm not sure what they do with the CO... probably burn it to make the steam. ;)

Yes, but that wont cut it for "green hydrogen" which is the current buzzword everyone is hitching their press statements to...As far as I am aware you can only do that via electrolysis...

I suspect that "green hydrogen" is marketing hype for ordinary hydrogen, which is "green" from the consumer's point of view, since *he* isn't creating any greenhouse gases.

If they had some way to sequester the carbon that's in the output, then that would make steam reformed hydrogen "green". e.g. they could put in a whole lot more energy and convert the CO to carbon and O2, and then bury the carbon, or make pencils or diamonds or graphene out of it. But, energy-wise, it would probably consume more energy than was in the hydrogen. Or they could induce the carbon to form long chains (polymers) and therefore produce plastics to be used to make useful products. I don't know how you would do that, or what the energy budget would be, but given sufficient energy, anything is possible.

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Obraik

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#2702402 5-May-2021 16:10

frankv:

I suspect that "green hydrogen" is marketing hype for ordinary hydrogen, which is "green" from the consumer's point of view, since *he* isn't creating any greenhouse gases.

If they had some way to sequester the carbon that's in the output, then that would make steam reformed hydrogen "green". e.g. they could put in a whole lot more energy and convert the CO to carbon and O2, and then bury the carbon, or make pencils or diamonds or graphene out of it. But, energy-wise, it would probably consume more energy than was in the hydrogen. Or they could induce the carbon to form long chains (polymers) and therefore produce plastics to be used to make useful products. I don't know how you would do that, or what the energy budget would be, but given sufficient energy, anything is possible.

Green hydrogen is hydrogen made via electrolysis using renewable energy and has zero emissions.

The downside is that it is very inefficient so when it comes to most transportation, you're far better off using that electricity to directly power those vehicles.

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kingdragonfly

11218 posts

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#2702821 6-May-2021 09:35

Stuff: Ford is betting that solid-state batteries will cut EV costs

Ford has raised its stake in a manufacturer of solid-state batteries – a move that its chief product and operations officer, Hau Thai-Tang, says will strengthen the company's effort to increase the range and reduce the costs of its next generation of electric vehicles.

Ford, along with BMW, this week announced their investment in a US$130 million funding round for Solid Power, a Denver-based company that is developing sulfide solid-state battery technology. Thai-Tang says the technology should give Ford the flexibility to either shrink battery sizes to make it less expensive to manufacture some vehicles or keep the same size battery and achieve a greater range of distance in other models.

Solid state batteries, with their solid ion-conducting material instead of the liquid electrolyte found in most lithium-ion batteries, can store more energy. This expands the vehicles' range from the same-size battery or allows for smaller batteries, which are typically lighter with a lower risk of fire
....
Q: What time frame do you see for switching to solid-state?

A: We think it’s realistic to target by the end of this decade if we continue to make the progress we’re making.
...

Obraik

2123 posts

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#2702827 6-May-2021 09:43

The state of Victoria in Australia has put up a (small) subsidy for EVs

Come on New Zealand...here's hoping they announce something with the budget on the 20th.

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afe66

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#2702860 6-May-2021 11:07

$5 says nothing really changes.

Will continue the previous national government policy of no road user charges(you know the apparently anti green one).

Remove the fringe benefit tax on new ev to encourage businesses.

SaltyNZ

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#2702863 6-May-2021 11:18

afe66: $5 says nothing really changes.

Will continue the previous national government policy of no road user charges(you know the apparently anti green one).

Remove the fringe benefit tax on new ev to encourage businesses.

And increase it on business purchases for gratuitously unnecessary vehicles, e.g. Joe Carpet Salesdirector who has purchased a Ford Ranger to drive to the office (whereas a tradie has an actual need for a vehicle like that).

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tripper1000

1619 posts

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#2702868 6-May-2021 11:31

I agree except the removal of a tax. Labour prefer the stick to the carrot, so will never remove any tax ever not even for poor people let alone 'rich pricks' who can afford new cars.

Edit: The Freebate scheme as particularly daring (for them) and it didn't get off the ground.

SaltyNZ

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#2702871 6-May-2021 11:39

tripper1000:

I agree except the removal of a tax. Labour prefer the stick to the carrot, so will never remove any tax ever not even for poor people let alone 'rich pricks' who can afford new cars.

Edit: The Freebate scheme as particularly daring (for them) and it didn't get off the ground.

I certainly have no problem if they want to make SUVs $10K more expensive...

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wellygary

8345 posts

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#2702876 6-May-2021 11:52

Obraik:

The state of Victoria in Australia has put up a (small) subsidy for EVs

Come on New Zealand...here's hoping they announce something with the budget on the 20th.

VIC gives with one hand and takes with the other, the EV rebate is capped at 4000 vehicles in the first round,.. lets see how long it takes to get there...

For reference there were only 6700 BEVS sold across all of Aust in 2020, So i'm guessing it was 2-3000 in VIC (and similar in NSW)

But from 1 July EVs in VIC will pay a 2.5 c/km RUC,

PHEVs will pay 2c/km will this will likely kill that type of vehicle as there isn't any rebate available for the petrol Kms they drive (they say that's why its 2c not 2.5c)

https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/registration/registration-fees/zlev-road-user-charge

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