Zero Electric Scooters

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7 posts

Wannabe Geek

#2213253 8-Apr-2019 20:45

jonathan18:
Cheep:

So my theory is there is not enough information known about electric scooters in NZ to properly regulate them at the moment.

The max output can't be measured by the controller (of which the Zero 10X has 2 x 25A) but rather the power output of the batteries which isn't obvious by just looking at it (Zero do a 18A and 24A version) Also if riding on a half-charged battery, the output if going to be quite a bit less (along with peak efficiencies as others have mentioned) so it is a very grey area.

Interestingly Falcon have an export model (full power) and local version of their scooters which complies with Singapore regulations.

I have a 10X 18A which I use everyday for work and it's awesome. I've hit 60km/h on the flat and it still has some left to go but on average I tend to do 40km/h max so as not to draw too much attention.

Is there not a risk, though, of the Govt responding to this situation by simply banning all scooters from the road, and placing some arbitrary (and difficult to police) speed limit for scooters being used on the footpath (or even ban their use there too)?

I have to admit that the risk central and/or local government may do something stupid in relation to e-scooters does worry me a bit, given I've forked out nearly $2k for one to use as my 'daily driver'. Let alone what that would do to e-scooters' role as part of solving our transport (and emissions) woes...

I wouldn't be against the idea to limit the speed rather than power as it could at least be controlled somewhat and people can get around and not be restricted to just traveling on near flat surfaces. 300W isn't usable around hilly NZ anyway.

I ride along the road rather than path and obey road rules mostly (even when cyclists run red lights around me constantly).

The best thing the government can do it change rules around cycle lanes and encourage e-scooters to use them instead of the path.

jonathan18

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#2213264 8-Apr-2019 21:06

Cheep:
The best thing the government can do it change rules around cycle lanes and encourage e-scooters to use them instead of the path.

Absolutely agree. I feel a bit worried each time a cop car passes me when I'm riding in the cycle lane, but I guess this may mean they're electing to ignore a silly law, especially given they see someone wearing a helmet and riding sensibly...

It would be interesting to know what work is actually planned or underway in regards to comprehensive national policy and rules to govern e-scooters. Hopefully NZ isn't as short-sighted as some jurisdictions like the UK.

jonathan18

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#2213269 8-Apr-2019 21:15

Other countries handle things slightly differently. In France you can ride an electric scooter in cycle lanes and on the pavement, providing you keep to a set speed limit. In Germany, electric scooter use on pavements is legal up to 6kph. Austria and Switzerland it is fine to ride your scooter in cycle lanes and on roads up to 25kph.

In California. PLEVs are recognised as a legal way to get around as long as the rider is over 16 and wears a helmet.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2018/11/23/why-are-electric-scooters-illegal-in-the-uk-the-183-year-old-laws-restricting-the-latest-craze-8171444/amp/

robfish

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#2213320 9-Apr-2019 06:37

Now also looking at the Zero range, would the Zero 9 be more suitable?

Yes.

Rob

LiveM

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Geek

#2214003 9-Apr-2019 22:21

jonathan18:

At the end of fourth avenue in Tauranga is a coldesack that leads onto a walkway track.It requires a bit of effort to walk up .My guess would be about 30- 40 degrees.

The road is a better surface for riding on than footpaths but you are a bit safer on the footpath.

You might be surprised; they say Dunedin has the steepest street in the world, and it's less than 20 degrees.

I had guessed my local streets to be around 30 degrees but last night I measured them and they were only 10-11.

Over the last couple of days I have tried a few scooters, and found the Zero 9 (1200W) is the minimum for this kind of hill. However, the Zero 8 and Ecoreco L5 will handle a slightly lesser grade pretty well.

For me the L5 is about as massive a scooter as I would want, and I preferred its bigger deck. The Zero 8 is a little larger and power felt the same with 768W & 960W respectively in their specs.

The suspension on the L5 and Zero 8 are both absolutely fine. I had not expected that with the solid tyres and the L5's spring suspension. I took them over the Victorian-era cobblestones around Victoria Park Market with much missing grout as well as various obstacles on footpaths and roads nearby.

Yesterday I tried the E-Micro Falcon and that is a much better-design product IMO. The lever throttle on the others is so twitchy whereas this has a twist throttle, plus it is much lighter and works well without the motor. However, it doesn't have the same power and its lack of suspension combined with solid tyres was a killer on the big gaps in the sections along the cycle path I tried. Ordinary footpaths were OK.

The Falcon is now obsolete and they are selling them out, with the Merlin model coming this month including suspension. It is much lower to the ground since a hybrid kick scooter and this makes it more stable with a lower centre of gravity.

However, e-scooters are definitely high-risk - I couldn't even safely look behind to check for traffic, let alone signal, while the body positioning and lack of gyroscopic effect of the wheels really make too high-risk for me or my family to use for commuting.

I will still try the Merlin when it comes back and report back how it compares with the others I have tried. I really want to get something but it's a lot of money for something I can no longer see anyone in our family using regularly.

jonathan18

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#2214046 10-Apr-2019 05:33

LiveM:
jonathan18:

At the end of fourth avenue in Tauranga is a coldesack that leads onto a walkway track.It requires a bit of effort to walk up .My guess would be about 30- 40 degrees.

The road is a better surface for riding on than footpaths but you are a bit safer on the footpath.

For the record, you have quoted me as saying the above, whereas I had asked the question as to how steep it was!

jonathan18

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#2214047 10-Apr-2019 05:44

Interesting post, thanks. Good idea to trial a number of models, and an advantage to living in a city with the shop at hand, I’d not come across the Ecoreco L5 so must look it up.

LiveM:

However, e-scooters are definitely high-risk - I couldn't even safely look behind to check for traffic, let alone signal, while the body positioning and lack of gyroscopic effect of the wheels really make too high-risk for me or my family to use for commuting.

Just a note on this: robfish has said earlier in this thread that he found a big difference in the stability when looking behind on the Zero 10 vs the Mi M365, thanks to the significantly larger tyres (10 vs 8 inch). This was my strongest reason for electing to buy a 10 over a 9 (the wheels of which, despite the model #, are 8.5”!).

I hear you with the difficulty of signaling - I’m hoping the 10’s better balance will allow for me to signal more easily, at least at slow speeds, as it’s virtually impossible at all on the Mi. I’ve seen some options to retrofit indicators at the end of the handlebars, but am unsure how tricky these would be to wire in a controller.

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Cheep

7 posts

Wannabe Geek

#2214321 10-Apr-2019 12:07

LiveM:
jonathan18:

At the end of fourth avenue in Tauranga is a coldesack that leads onto a walkway track.It requires a bit of effort to walk up .My guess would be about 30- 40 degrees.

The road is a better surface for riding on than footpaths but you are a bit safer on the footpath.

You might be surprised; they say Dunedin has the steepest street in the world, and it's less than 20 degrees.

I had guessed my local streets to be around 30 degrees but last night I measured them and they were only 10-11.

Over the last couple of days I have tried a few scooters, and found the Zero 9 (1200W) is the minimum for this kind of hill. However, the Zero 8 and Ecoreco L5 will handle a slightly lesser grade pretty well.

I measured my driveway at approx 17% which is pretty damn steep and the 10X flies up it no worries at all (it'll even spin the wheels to get traction if I stop half way).

I tested a Zero 9 48V - 13AH up the same driveway and it needed a helping hand to get up there. I really think you need dual motors for any steep terrain (by the way the Zero 9 has a single 600W motor not 1200W).

LiveM

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#2214339 10-Apr-2019 12:35

Cheep: I really think you need dual motors for any steep terrain (by the way the Zero 9 has a single 600W motor not 1200W).

The motor is 600W but the actual power supply is 1200W (power = V x a). The motor rating doesn't seem to be much of a guide and LTA only uses the power supply, not the motor rating, in setting its restrictions.

Cheep

7 posts

Wannabe Geek

#2214347 10-Apr-2019 12:59

LiveM:
Cheep: I really think you need dual motors for any steep terrain (by the way the Zero 9 has a single 600W motor not 1200W).

The motor is 600W but the actual power supply is 1200W (power = V x a). The motor rating doesn't seem to be much of a guide and LTA only uses the power supply, not the motor rating, in setting its restrictions.

The controller is 25A but if the battery is 48V-13A then maximum output will only ever be 624W (but probably quite a bit less).

LiveM

26 posts

Geek

#2214545 10-Apr-2019 17:51

That's the battery capacity, rather than the output - the controller's current output times the voltage is the power output.

I tried the Inokim models today and they are very nice and stable, with low decks and large wheels. Unfortunately the claim of 15-degree slope handling is nonsense - they are no more powerful than the others I have tried.

That brings me back to the wish for a small scooter and to that end the Inokim Mini is a great little scooter in terms of size, weight and balance. It just has a twitchy thumb control system which is a shame as the power is good.

After that I settled on the E-Micro Falcon (my earlier posts were about the Condor, not the Falcon sorry), knowing it is going to be more for short fun rides for the family rather than commuting since there is no model that meets our commuting needs. I am very happy with this purchase as the design is so good, and that smooth Micro twist control plus the design, dimensions and portability (8kg) combined with 100kg+ load capacity really made it the right choice and I have no regrets. :)

jonathan18

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#2214894 11-Apr-2019 10:50

I've been looking into a solution to the inability to safely indicate when riding a scooter. I looked into options that are typically mounted on a bike seat stem such as this one sold by Falcon PEV, which also sells a bracket for scooter mounting. But I don't think these actually fix my biggest problem, which is ensuring traffic in front of me knows what I'm doing, eg when turning right at a roundabout (a real issue where I live, given it's Roundabout City).

I therefore think handlebar indicators may be the best way to go - they'll be seen from the front and, much of the time, by cars behind me; and can be located much higher up than if attached to the rear mudguard. With a bit more digging I think I've found an ideal solution - they're called Winglights, with three models being sold by the manufacturer (Cycl) on Trade Me: they make plastic ones (Pop), metal ones (Fixed) and removable metal ones (magnetic). (There's also a rechargeable version, but that's 64 pounds from the UK site.)

Edit: here's a short video demoing the magnetic ones, which is the set I'm likely to order.

My question to any current users of Zero scooters - will the handlebar stem of these scooters (in particular, the 9) fit these lights? (They will apparently work with an inner diameter of 14.7-23mm)

Also, are there any other options that I've missed?

I guess there's the potential that this particular brand may be overkill given there are cheap versions for only a few bucks sold on AliExpress, eg these ones - but I feel ones like this aren't that useful during the day, given they don't really project out much from the end of the handlebars.

Thanks!

Cheep

7 posts

Wannabe Geek

#2215628 12-Apr-2019 11:22

LiveM: That's the battery capacity, rather than the output - the controller's current output times the voltage is the power output.

This is true. I wonder how much of the time the power output equates to those figures though - probably only a few seconds at most?

It would be interesting to know what the power output is 99% of the time.

Cheep

7 posts

Wannabe Geek

#2215630 12-Apr-2019 11:26

jonathan18:

I've been looking into a solution to the inability to safely indicate when riding a scooter. I looked into options that are typically mounted on a bike seat stem such as this one sold by Falcon PEV, which also sells a bracket for scooter mounting. But I don't think these actually fix my biggest problem, which is ensuring traffic in front of me knows what I'm doing, eg when turning right at a roundabout (a real issue where I live, given it's Roundabout City).

I therefore think handlebar indicators may be the best way to go - they'll be seen from the front and, much of the time, by cars behind me; and can be located much higher up than if attached to the rear mudguard. With a bit more digging I think I've found an ideal solution - they're called Winglights, with three models being sold by the manufacturer (Cycl) on Trade Me: they make plastic ones (Pop), metal ones (Fixed) and removable metal ones (magnetic). (There's also a rechargeable version, but that's 64 pounds from the UK site.)

Edit: here's a short video demoing the magnetic ones, which is the set I'm likely to order.

My question to any current users of Zero scooters - will the handlebar stem of these scooters (in particular, the 9) fit these lights? (They will apparently work with an inner diameter of 14.7-23mm)

Also, are there any other options that I've missed?

I guess there's the potential that this particular brand may be overkill given there are cheap versions for only a few bucks sold on AliExpress, eg these ones - but I feel ones like this aren't that useful during the day, given they don't really project out much from the end of the handlebars.

Thanks!

I thought about getting something similar but haven't researched it yet. Let us know what you think of the Cycl ones.

Not sure if the USB socket on the LCD throttle could be used to integrate indicators. I guess it would need to support 5v and whatever ampage it can give out though.

robfish

683 posts

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#2215632 12-Apr-2019 11:39

LiveM: That's the battery capacity, rather than the output - the controller's current output times the voltage is the power output.

Still not quite correct. Motor current x voltage gives power usage, not output. You still have to take into account the efficiency of the motor.

Also the power output of the motor is not the same as the power output of the scooter (the lawmakers will only consider the motor output power, not the input power)

Rob

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