Road surfaces: do they contribute to our high accident rate?

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Road surfaces: do they contribute to our high accident rate?

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#2820268 27-Nov-2021 16:58

Geektastic: It will now need replacing. At a cost of $1000 plus all my time arranging it and getting it to and from a dealer.

That's anonying. I gather the insurance excess on that thing is massive..

Geektastic

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#2820273 27-Nov-2021 17:15

gzt:
Geektastic: It will now need replacing. At a cost of $1000 plus all my time arranging it and getting it to and from a dealer.

That's anonying. I gather the insurance excess on that thing is massive..

$500 if you have a bike licence (even though it's a car) and $1000 if you don't.

gzt

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#2820283 27-Nov-2021 17:47

Common problem with the Spyder apparently...

https://spyderpops.com/belt-guards/

Might as well fit one at the same time.

Geektastic

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#2821462 30-Nov-2021 10:41

I have one en route @gzt so thanks for that!

Since I was paying US$96 for shipping anyway I added a few other items, including stainless steel grilles to help keep loose chippings, leaves etc out of the air ducts for the two radiators. There are grilles right up in front of the radiators but there is a good 30cm or so from the opening at the front of the vehicle to where they are. These grilles go about 10cm inward from the front of that opening and make more sense.

gzt

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#2822161 30-Nov-2021 22:45

You're welcome! I hope that works as it should or at least helps. {fingerscrossed}

Bung

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#2822169 30-Nov-2021 23:16

Harley drive belts also suffer from stone damage. Apparently chunks out of an edge are more likely to be terminal as they can start a tear. Belts with a hole in the middle often survive for a long time.

CourtJester

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#2825127 6-Dec-2021 16:26

Road surface, camber, and sightlines all contribute to the accident rate, as does boredom, exhaustion, and distraction.

A poor pavement surface degrades tyre grip, for both braking, lateral stability and cornering ability.

Poor pavement choices can increase surface glare, and reduces the ability of drivers to observe road markings and debris.

Excessive pavement induced noise leads to unnecessary driver exhaustion. To some extent this can be counteracted by tyre choice, and purchase of more expensive sound insulated vehicles (but not for most drivers trapped by NZ's low wage economy).

Having risen more than 1.5m kilometres on NZ roads on motorcycles, and driven about the same in cars and trucks, and about 100,000 on bicycles I can categorically state the quality of both urban and regional highway surfaces has been steadily degrading since the 1980s. Worse yet state highways built at extraordinary expense to the requirements of the USA Geometric Design manual have often failed to account for NZ conditions -both weather, and the minor fact that we drive on the opposite side of the road. The result ponding, weird mid intersection and roundabout cambers and a slew of decidedly "off camber corners" across almost the newly built network.
One regional road corner I was involved in building a few years ago was designed with an 16º off camber, and weirdly a culvert standing a half meter a turn above the finished pavement surface. as a Motorcycle rider, I called my engineers I refused to actually pave the corner until it had been reassessed by the engineers in person. It transpired that the contractors had misinterpreted the Geometric design drawings (by a person who had never been on site, which in turn had misapplied the findings of the original surveyor. The drainage guys had built to spec, designed by another engineer correctly. They made no comment at all about the weird choice to pave the road below the level of the culvert. My tools to prove my argument involved a length of string, a builders level, a tape measure and a small amount of calculus. but the original critique was derived from my experienced eye -on site.

As a rider/driver with extensive experience prior to the excess enforcement of speed limits, back when roads were mostly better paved, and the decisions of experienced hands on road construction and maintenance supervisors (council engineers) determined the way cambers were set, and drainage was incorporated into road design, I can say that riding and driving on NZ roads today at or below posted open road limits is actually far more stressful than riding or driving far above the previously higher set speed limits (note I have always held to urban speedliits). Pavement quality degradation, and Geometric design principles plays a big part in this.

The perfect example of contrast. I have extensive experience driving SH1 & SH3 in the North Island. For many years I would frequently from Wellington to Auckland, or Wellington to Kawhia (SH 31). one thing I noted was as SH1 was realigned, straightened, repaved it became increasing less user friendly. Visually the road became increasingly an excercise in terminal boredom, and exhaustion. So after between 7 and 12 hours traveling on SH1 ( a journey that once took me just 4.5 hours), I was almost brain dead, that was until I turned onto the far more old school meandering, windy ridgeline, mountain pass road that comprised SH31 to Kawhia. that last 45 minutes engaged my brain, my arms, my legs, and I would arrive in Kawhia far more alert and on the ball than after the first hour trundling along on SH1 out of Wellington. why? because SH31 has relatively short sightlines, corners that actually required more than 2º of steering input, braking, acceleration, and constant assessment of the next 200m of relatively poorly maintained pavement. weirdly as SH31 has become increasingly maintained in recent years, many of the road faults which improved grip (slumps providing edges to "lean" on) through corners have been eliminated and the road has become more challenging to drive.

One could argue NZ roads are expensive to maintain, but as we have seen a good many of the road safety initiatives have actually increased the number of lower speed accidents dramatically, while barely denting the key measures of serious accidents. Perhaps if less was spent on expensive redesigns by draughts persons referencing the Geometric design manual, and International Roading Forums Principles of Road Safety Guidelines (prepared purely to maximise spend on ancillary road furniture) we would have roads in which poor camber and pitiful maintenance of drainage and pavement were progressively rectified one corner at a time.

certainly from what I have seen, the only effect of the recent adoption of widespread wire barriers, is that both pavement integrity, and road drainage has been widely compromised. The result is that the roads will degrade faster, will require more expensive future repair and maintenance, and drivers and riders are faced with fewer escape options when shit happens on the road ahead of them. None of which are conducive to road safety.

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andrew027

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#2825153 6-Dec-2021 18:09

My personal opinion two cents' worth... the design and maintained condition of many roads in New Zealand is poor, and this undoubtedly contributes to accidents, injuries and death.

However, when I learnt how to drive and sat my licence tests, I was always told to "drive to the road conditions". That doesn't just mean slowing down if the road is wet, or icy, or it's dark. That also means slowing down and driving with more care if the road surface is poor. I can't be bothered googling it (sorry) but I'd be surprised if a very large percentage of road accidents in New Zealand were not caused by nothing more than bad driving; inattention, too much speed, failure to obey rules, over-inflated self-belief in the driver's ability... then add drivers who shouldn't be on the road at all for various reasons (impaired by drugs, alcohol or tiredness, having a lost or suspended licence, in an unsafe unwarranted vehicle, etc. - all conscious poor decisions on the part of the driver, as much as speeding or overtaking where there is no room).

So overall, I'd say the number of accidents caused solely by poor quality roads, that could not have been avoided by driving appropriately for the road conditions, would be pretty low.

MikeAqua

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#2825870 7-Dec-2021 15:25

I agree that you usually need to drive poorly (or at least non-defensively) to have an accident because of poor road surface.,

However, from a hazard management perspective 'good driving' would be considered a admin control and admin controls are usually considered inferior to engineered controls (in the longer term).

A simple example is a solid yellow center (admin) line vs a median barrier (engineered). The yellow line make it illegal for drivers to cross into the oncoming lane, the median barrier prevents them. Admin (weak) controls are often chosen because of funding - i.e. trading off lives saved vs available funding.

Mike

elpenguino

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#2825876 7-Dec-2021 15:34

MikeAqua:

I agree that you usually need to drive poorly (or at least non-defensively) to have an accident

We've got to stop using that word.

Accident implies the event occurred due to a chance event. Almost every road 'accident' should actually be referred to as a 'crash'. Almost every road death is preventable because of human factors involved.

The only road accidents are events like your car being crushed by a falling rock.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

Geektastic

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#2826299 7-Dec-2021 22:13

CourtJester:

Road surface, camber, and sightlines all contribute to the accident rate, as does boredom, exhaustion, and distraction.

A poor pavement surface degrades tyre grip, for both braking, lateral stability and cornering ability.

Poor pavement choices can increase surface glare, and reduces the ability of drivers to observe road markings and debris.

Excessive pavement induced noise leads to unnecessary driver exhaustion. To some extent this can be counteracted by tyre choice, and purchase of more expensive sound insulated vehicles (but not for most drivers trapped by NZ's low wage economy).

Having risen more than 1.5m kilometres on NZ roads on motorcycles, and driven about the same in cars and trucks, and about 100,000 on bicycles I can categorically state the quality of both urban and regional highway surfaces has been steadily degrading since the 1980s. Worse yet state highways built at extraordinary expense to the requirements of the USA Geometric Design manual have often failed to account for NZ conditions -both weather, and the minor fact that we drive on the opposite side of the road. The result ponding, weird mid intersection and roundabout cambers and a slew of decidedly "off camber corners" across almost the newly built network.
One regional road corner I was involved in building a few years ago was designed with an 16º off camber, and weirdly a culvert standing a half meter a turn above the finished pavement surface. as a Motorcycle rider, I called my engineers I refused to actually pave the corner until it had been reassessed by the engineers in person. It transpired that the contractors had misinterpreted the Geometric design drawings (by a person who had never been on site, which in turn had misapplied the findings of the original surveyor. The drainage guys had built to spec, designed by another engineer correctly. They made no comment at all about the weird choice to pave the road below the level of the culvert. My tools to prove my argument involved a length of string, a builders level, a tape measure and a small amount of calculus. but the original critique was derived from my experienced eye -on site.

As a rider/driver with extensive experience prior to the excess enforcement of speed limits, back when roads were mostly better paved, and the decisions of experienced hands on road construction and maintenance supervisors (council engineers) determined the way cambers were set, and drainage was incorporated into road design, I can say that riding and driving on NZ roads today at or below posted open road limits is actually far more stressful than riding or driving far above the previously higher set speed limits (note I have always held to urban speedliits). Pavement quality degradation, and Geometric design principles plays a big part in this.

The perfect example of contrast. I have extensive experience driving SH1 & SH3 in the North Island. For many years I would frequently from Wellington to Auckland, or Wellington to Kawhia (SH 31). one thing I noted was as SH1 was realigned, straightened, repaved it became increasing less user friendly. Visually the road became increasingly an excercise in terminal boredom, and exhaustion. So after between 7 and 12 hours traveling on SH1 ( a journey that once took me just 4.5 hours), I was almost brain dead, that was until I turned onto the far more old school meandering, windy ridgeline, mountain pass road that comprised SH31 to Kawhia. that last 45 minutes engaged my brain, my arms, my legs, and I would arrive in Kawhia far more alert and on the ball than after the first hour trundling along on SH1 out of Wellington. why? because SH31 has relatively short sightlines, corners that actually required more than 2º of steering input, braking, acceleration, and constant assessment of the next 200m of relatively poorly maintained pavement. weirdly as SH31 has become increasingly maintained in recent years, many of the road faults which improved grip (slumps providing edges to "lean" on) through corners have been eliminated and the road has become more challenging to drive.

One could argue NZ roads are expensive to maintain, but as we have seen a good many of the road safety initiatives have actually increased the number of lower speed accidents dramatically, while barely denting the key measures of serious accidents. Perhaps if less was spent on expensive redesigns by draughts persons referencing the Geometric design manual, and International Roading Forums Principles of Road Safety Guidelines (prepared purely to maximise spend on ancillary road furniture) we would have roads in which poor camber and pitiful maintenance of drainage and pavement were progressively rectified one corner at a time.

certainly from what I have seen, the only effect of the recent adoption of widespread wire barriers, is that both pavement integrity, and road drainage has been widely compromised. The result is that the roads will degrade faster, will require more expensive future repair and maintenance, and drivers and riders are faced with fewer escape options when shit happens on the road ahead of them. None of which are conducive to road safety.

That is very interesting - thanks. I wonder why they used a US road design manual instead of say the UK one, where at least the traffic goes the correct way?

Your comment about boredom is interesting. I have driven many tens of thousands of miles on UK and European motorways and they are truly an exercise in boredom. When you see a sign that says "Glasgow 280 miles" and then one that says "Glasgow 65 miles" but you realise you can't really recall anything in detail about the drive between the two you know you've just had the cruise control on and the radio and zoned out. Terribly dangerous.

I note a lot of cars now have systems that warn you to take a break and that kind of driving is exactly why I suspect.

Geektastic

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#2826304 7-Dec-2021 22:23

elpenguino:

MikeAqua:

I agree that you usually need to drive poorly (or at least non-defensively) to have an accident

We've got to stop using that word.

Accident implies the event occurred due to a chance event. Almost every road 'accident' should actually be referred to as a 'crash'. Almost every road death is preventable because of human factors involved.

The only road accidents are events like your car being crushed by a falling rock.

Also "speed and alcohol are believed to be factors" should be "dangerously bad driving and drink-driving are believed to be factors".

Bung

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#2826325 7-Dec-2021 23:17

Geektastic:
That is very interesting - thanks. I wonder why they used a US road design manual instead of say the UK one, where at least the traffic goes the correct way?

Waka Kotahi say they look to Australia "The Transport Agency use the Austroads guide to road design as the primary reference guideline for our road network. Links to the Austroads(external link) guides and supplementary guidance are available on the Geometric design page of the NZ Transport Agency website."

Benoire

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#2826326 7-Dec-2021 23:23

Which in itself is more AASHTO(US) based than DMRB(UK). Austroads is a good set of documents and gudiance for high speed roads, just not fit for purpose for urban 50km or lower environments.

MikeAqua

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#2828608 8-Dec-2021 12:58

elpenguino:

MikeAqua:

I agree that you usually need to drive poorly (or at least non-defensively) to have an accident

We've got to stop using that word.

Accident implies the event occurred due to a chance event. Almost every road 'accident' should actually be referred to as a 'crash'. Almost every road death is preventable because of human factors involved.

The only road accidents are events like your car being crushed by a falling rock.

Attempting to manage human factors is the least effective approach to controlling know hazards.

There will always be Grade 7s driving our roads (until we have 100% driverless cars). Cars and roads need to be engineered to minimise the potential for them to cause harm. We have so much room or improvement with roads in NZ.

Mike

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