EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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#2894606 31-Mar-2022 11:32

Yeah, I subscribed ages ago for updates and haven't had one re pricing/availability; even the Kia website still has no info, and test drive booking pages don't include the EV6.

I'll give my local Kia dealer a call to see if/when they're getting a car, but I won't hold my breath. Anyway, as much as I like the looks of the car, I think the boot's going to be too small for me...

That said, great to see one can get the larger battery and still qualify for the rebate - that's similar power/capacity to the Ioniq 5 I took for a test drive (with that model of the Hyundai being too expensive to qualify), and TBH I was a bit underwhelmed with its performance (though I know the EV6 is regarded as being a better drive; it's more the power delivery didn't impress). It's a good step up in price - $95k - to get the higher performance with 4WD; at that price I may as well wait for the Y.

Scott3

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#2894685 31-Mar-2022 12:24

Obraik:

The Kia EV6 pricing has been announced today with two models falling under the rebate cap.

$73k for the Standard Range and $79k for the Long Range

It's great that there are so many EV offing coming on to the market. For a long time EV offerings were Hatchbacks or Tesla.

This is quite a strong offering.

1600kg tow rating on "selected models". Fair bet that selected models will be everything with the long range battery pack, as per the ioniq 5.

Along with the 1500kg rated Polestar 2, the likely 1600kg rated long range EV6, will be the second EV with a tow rating in this ballpark.

And of course they quite different offerings, with the Polestar 2 being a china built FWD (AWD option above rebate limit) sedan styled lift-back, and the EV6 being a larger RWD (AWD option above Rebate limit) SUV. Each will appeal to different buyers.

Sounds like ground clearance is 155mm, so it is while marked and styled as a SUV it is getting pretty close to being a wagon.

First (non super expensive) EV to come to market that on it's spec sheet appears comparable to the 2006 Lexus RX400h in my driveway. EV6 Long range has:

Slightly more boot space (490L vs 435L)

Sightly more tow rating (1600kg vs 1500kg).

Slightly less power (168kW vs 200kW) - Frankly 168kW would be plenty.

RWD, vs Front biased AWD - For on road use I would pick RWD as a preference. Would need to stop going on the likes or Murawai beach which is the only time I would need all wheels driven, but I only do that about 3 times a year, and would be reluctant to do that in a $70k+ car anyway.

Both cars have abundant range for my needs. Driving Auckland to Wellington under 20mins charging time is very impressive. (In theory, charging to 80% in Taupo would give enough range to get to wellington, with 30km safety margin

Obraik

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#2894688 31-Mar-2022 12:32

Now we just need to have VW stop dragging their feet and bring the ID range to NZ

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Batman

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#2894692 31-Mar-2022 12:41

Obraik:

Slightly less power (168kW vs 200kW) - Frankly 168kW would be plenty.

the 200kW of ICE is at 6000rpm (power = torque x RPM) - takes ages to get there and when you get there in half an instant it's gone coz you need to change gears

while you are changing gears, you have 0 kW on tap for as long as you are changing the gear

where as the 168kW is there *all the time, on tap, at your leisure.

*almost, if you study the actual power curve, but close enough

kingdragonfly

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#2894908 31-Mar-2022 17:37

I know Marques Brownlee is a bit of a persona non grata, but he does make some good points.

He is not giving the whole story on the Tesla Roadster 2.0

MotorTrend 2022: Tesla Removes Roadster Pricing, Founders Edition Reservations From Website

...So far, no official word has come from Tesla or even an unofficial tweet from Musk about the fate of the Roadster [2.0 Founder's edition].

However, it does appear that that full information on its pricing has been removed from Tesla's website—just as it has been removed from the Cybertruck's page—and you can no longer put down $250,000 to reserve the Founders Series version of it.

You can still put down a $50,000 deposit for a regular Roadster, but there is no pricing to let you know just how much you'll be paying in total when (or if) it launches.

Tesla does note that the reservation is still refundable, so if the final price is too high or it doesn't materialize, you can cancel and get your money back.

The Electric Car Pre-Order Problem

Marques Brownlee

I really want EVs to be the future, but this is getting ridiculous...

HarmLessSolutions

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#2896011 3-Apr-2022 09:12

kingdragonfly: .....

The Electric Car Pre-Order Problem

Marques Brownlee

I really want EVs to be the future, but this is getting ridiculous...

My SIL is an electronic design engineer for a major carmaker and spent a few years employed by an EV start-up company in an Asian country. Her reply when I sent her the above video:

"Very accurate, exactly described XXXXX 🚘. The last video you sent, XXXXX were doing this parading around in the US with their prototype cars. By requesting a down payment for their cars they can raise money for the company."

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

Batman

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#2896030 3-Apr-2022 09:31

i'm not sure why people here are complaining, if you're like me, all my cars are worth under $10k ... no way I'd be paying $200k for a battery car (or petrol)

but waiting for you all to buy all the teslas, all the EVs and flood the 2nd hand market when you update ...

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Linuxluver

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#2896041 3-Apr-2022 09:40

HarmLessSolutions:

...

My SIL is an electronic design engineer for a major carmaker and spent a few years employed by an EV start-up company in an Asian country. Her reply when I sent her the above video:

"Very accurate, exactly described XXXXX 🚘. The last video you sent, XXXXX were doing this parading around in the US with their prototype cars. By requesting a down payment for their cars they can raise money for the company."

Cars are big, complex things that are hard to make and there is a lot of regulation around them for valid quality and safety reasons.

That all takes time. The case for EVs is made.....people want them. But we can't all have one right now...for the same reason we can't all have a new petrol car right now......they can't sustain a business model that made a billion cars...then scaled back 95%. Even worse for 'legacy' automakers who kept kicking the can down the road for 25 years despite the writing being on the wall in neon day-glo.

Tesla is moving as fast as they can...from a standing start....and hampered by market forces, some regulators, vested interests with pet politicians......and a propaganda campaign from those vested interests that exploits widespread ignorance - mainly on the conservative side of the spectrum.

But we are making steady progress.......just another year or two.......

_____________________________________________________________________

I've been on Geekzone over 16 years..... Time flies....

HarmLessSolutions

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#2896075 3-Apr-2022 10:22

Batman:

i'm not sure why people here are complaining, if you're like me, all my cars are worth under $10k ... no way I'd be paying $200k for a battery car (or petrol)

but waiting for you all to buy all the teslas, all the EVs and flood the 2nd hand market when you update ...

We're in the market for a Polestar2 and are potentially facing a 2 month wait for a test drive as the NZ agents are trying to place around 2,000 other prospective buyers in the driver's seat for a try. The unprecedented demand has caught them flat footed, due I suspect to the 'perfect storm' of current fuel prices and the Polestar2 receiving glowing reviews often along the lines of being a 'Tesla beater', which for us it is (towing ability, comfort level, exclusivity, confidence in service network.)

The pricing of the both of the single motor variants are under the $80K rebate threshold and as we will be purchasing one in a business capacity we can also lighten the price further regarding GST clawback. A long way short of the $200K you've stated and for us a large proportion of the charging will be by way of our PV generation so 'fuel' savings will be substantial and of course will reinforce the economic viability of our PV investment.

We are considering the purchase to be a long term investment so don't hold your breath waiting for ours to appear on the second hand market. The geriatric Commodore we'll be retiring has spent close to 20 years being our long trip and towing vehicle as we tend to service our vehicles well and stick with them as long as they are reliable.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

elpenguino

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#2896078 3-Apr-2022 10:27

Agree with your main points LL but one thing I could criticise EV producers on is the complexity or fit out of their products.

Why does Tesla include all the gubbins like self drive , parking lot return and the big screen in the dash?

The Leaf shows that many people are happy with a simple car to get from a to b.

I would guess Tesla et Al could make cars a lot cheaper and faster if the feature list was greatly reduced. Who cares about fancy door handles?

I'd rather have a standard hole in the dash so I can fit any stereo from the major manufacturer I want.

And how long is it going to be until the so called self drive features are certified for use in most countries?

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

HarmLessSolutions

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#2896166 3-Apr-2022 11:58

elpenguino: Agree with your main points LL but one thing I could criticise EV producers on is the complexity or fit out of their products.

Why does Tesla include all the gubbins like self drive , parking lot return and the big screen in the dash?

....

Another family contact who works for Ford in the UK as an electrical design engineer explained the relevance of the use of touch controlled computer screens was to do with their lower production cost and lack of maintenance in comparison to knobs and buttons. Also the functionality can be updated and modified by way of online software updates as the technology of EVs advances.

The general complexity of EVs I suspect has more to do with competition between manufacturers in what is a hot market for relatively expensive vehicles. As battery prices reduce and so bring down the manufactured cost of EVs, in comparison to ICE vehicles the chance to produce cheap and cheerful cars for the masses will present itself along with more basic option packages. This seems to be the case with some Chinese domestic model EVs already but safety regulations will prevent most of them becoming available outside of China for the time being at least.

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Obraik

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#2896181 3-Apr-2022 12:30

elpenguino: Agree with your main points LL but one thing I could criticise EV producers on is the complexity or fit out of their products.

Why does Tesla include all the gubbins like self drive , parking lot return and the big screen in the dash?

The Leaf shows that many people are happy with a simple car to get from a to b.

I would guess Tesla et Al could make cars a lot cheaper and faster if the feature list was greatly reduced. Who cares about fancy door handles?

I'd rather have a standard hole in the dash so I can fit any stereo from the major manufacturer I want.

And how long is it going to be until the so called self drive features are certified for use in most countries?

The fact that Tesla's vehicles are in hot demand, to the point that this years stock is almost sold out already indicates that there are plenty of people that do want a car like that.

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Scott3

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#2896192 3-Apr-2022 13:18

Batman:

Obraik:

Slightly less power (168kW vs 200kW) - Frankly 168kW would be plenty.

the 200kW of ICE is at 6000rpm (power = torque x RPM) - takes ages to get there and when you get there in half an instant it's gone coz you need to change gears

while you are changing gears, you have 0 kW on tap for as long as you are changing the gear

where as the 168kW is there *all the time, on tap, at your leisure.

*almost, if you study the actual power curve, but close enough

As a general rule, especially in luxury petrol vehicles, one of the main drivers for a powerful engine is because of the negitive impact on noise, vibration & harshness when the engine is being absolutely thrashed. Something that doesn't apply in an EV.

Our 80kW leaf replaced a 2006 corolla (1zz-FE 1.8L @ 97kWh I think). And despite the combination of less power & more weight, the leaf is a substantially nicer to drive. Of course the 80kW leaf is noticeably slower than the 200kW lexus, but is still fast enough it is not really an issue.

The with regards to the RX400h is a hybrid (and with the toyota/llexus e-CVT), so it's drive-train is somewhat electric like. Floor the accelerator, and you get a bit of a push forward as the electric motors react near instantly. Then a second later the petrol engine will have spun up to higher RPM, and you get a much bigger surge of power. The car has a kW output gauge on the dash, and it gets to 200kW fairly quickly and will stay their untill you lift. I rate the setup really highly. Main downside is that the AWD system is heverly front biased, which leads to a surprising amount of torque steer. And the car rides on soft suspension, so the handling is not up to the level of the acceleration. Also traction control cannot be disabled, which is not ideal on the likes of sand where you want to spin the wheels.

Scott3

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#2896197 3-Apr-2022 13:49

elpenguino: Agree with your main points LL but one thing I could criticise EV producers on is the complexity or fit out of their products.

Why does Tesla include all the gubbins like self drive , parking lot return and the big screen in the dash?

The Leaf shows that many people are happy with a simple car to get from a to b.

I would guess Tesla et Al could make cars a lot cheaper and faster if the feature list was greatly reduced. Who cares about fancy door handles?

I'd rather have a standard hole in the dash so I can fit any stereo from the major manufacturer I want.

And how long is it going to be until the so called self drive features are certified for use in most countries?

Tesla's ethos has all way's been to produce desirable cars that happen to be electric. And to compete with all cars, not just petrol cars.

Their master plan back in 2006 was:

So, in short, the master plan is:

Build sports car
Use that money to build an affordable car
Use that money to build an even more affordable car
While doing above, also provide zero emission electric power generation options

https://www.tesla.com/fr_FR/blog/secret-tesla-motors-master-plan-just-between-you-and-me

1. Was the (1st gen) roadster (competes against exotics)

2. Was the model S (competes against luxary car's - BMW 7 series, audi A8, Merc S class)

3. Was the model 3 (targets the likes of BMW 3 series).

4. Is their solar roof tiles & powerwall etc.

Given the car's that Tesla was competing against, and given that Tesla wasn't able to match the likes of BMW for interior quality, acoustic insulation etc, so Tesla had to bring something different to the value equation. And they picked really quick acceleration, and being high tech. The market obviously likes their offerings, especially the model 3.

Should note that Tesla wasn't holding back the shipment of cars for the likes of self driving. They were quite happy to ship the car's with a sensor suite even when the software isn't ready. I think Tesla has also ditched expensive senors like forward looking radar, and now makes do with 8x camera's and 12 ultrasonic sensors, all of which are fairly cheap and readily available commodities these days.

On the big screens, I assume this is actually a fairly cost effective vs designing a conventional infotainment / climate control module for the center of the dashboard (while also providing a unique selling point). One can buy a 15.6" touchscreen from pbtech for under $400. This is likely especially true in the model 3 where a conventional drivers gauge display unit is completly committed.

Also Tesla's Company culture seems somewhat stubborn.

The roadster (gen 1) original design called for a two speed manual gear box. Car could typically be driven in 2nd like an auto, but 1st could be selected for even more aggressive acceleration. Turns out nobody could / would build a gearbox to suit the 10,000+ RPM input speed of their motor. This issue delayed the deliver of the roadster for quite a while, and eventually an up-sized motor and/or inverter was settled on to get the target performance specs without the need for the two speed box.

The decision to go with gull wing doors on the model X caused substantial delays with the model X, but Tesla stuck with them regardless, despite their questionable value.

gzt

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#2896210 3-Apr-2022 14:27

Polestar looks like the more versatile car. I'm still inclined towards Tesla because of the huge number produced. Keeping Tesla long beyond the warranty period won't be an issue for obtaining spares if needed. The other manufacturers don't have that volume yet. I assume Hyundai is a distant second for volume. Hyundai being very traditional auto won't be an issue for spares and price either I think.

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