EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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7779 posts

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#2897582 6-Apr-2022 11:10

SaltyNZ:

I read an article yesterday that said last year globally over 53GWh of power batteries were manufactured, and those numbers are ramping up fast. Shipping companies are just going to have to find ways to deal with the issue because it isn't going away. At least not until solid state batteries hit the market in any meaningful way.

It would be interesting to try and design a fire control system that would deal with a ev fire on a ship. Conventional approaches to smothering an engine room fire (aerosol systems, gas systems etc) aren't going to cut it.

Maybe a deluge system similar to the kind used in vehicle tunnels. That would stop the fir spreading and maintain structural integrity. But then you have to be able to get the water off the deck fast, or you will have the free surface effect making the vessel unstable.

Quite a challenge.

Mike

frankv

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#2897584 6-Apr-2022 11:15

Scott3:

As said above, a used and new EV will fuel the fire the same.

I guess the assumption is that a used EV could be damaged/worn, which would make it more susceptible to fire.

frankv

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#2897586 6-Apr-2022 11:20

MikeAqua:

It would be interesting to try and design a fire control system that would deal with a ev fire on a ship. Conventional approaches to smothering an engine room fire (aerosol systems, gas systems etc) aren't going to cut it.

I wonder whether the whole vehicle deck could be flooded with inert gas for the whole voyage. e.g. route the exhaust from the ship's engines through the vehicle deck?

tripper1000

1617 posts

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#2897593 6-Apr-2022 11:32

MikeAqua:
SaltyNZ:.... Shipping companies are just going to have to find ways to deal with the issue because it isn't going away. At least not until solid state batteries hit the market in any meaningful way.

It would be interesting to try and design a fire control system that would deal with a ev fire on a ship. Conventional approaches to smothering an engine room fire (aerosol systems, gas systems etc) aren't going to cut it.

Maybe a deluge system similar to the kind used in vehicle tunnels. That would stop the fir spreading and maintain structural integrity. But then you have to be able to get the water off the deck fast, or you will have the free surface effect making the vessel unstable.

Quite a challenge.

The fire fuel source is an EV fire isn't much different to an ICE, other that the fuel being held in lots of little containers that progressively feed the fire, rather than 1 big container.

It is a common misconception that lithium battery fires are bad due to lithium metal burning. This isn't true - less that 2% of the battery is lithium by weight and it isn't in the flammable metal state anyway. The fires are bad because the electrolyte in LiPo and LiIon is as flammable as petrol.

You don't have to wait for solid state electrolytes though, because LiFePO4 has non-flammable electrolyte. It just isn't quite as energy dense. Tesla is using LiFePO4 in some models (ex china I believe) and it is common in home built EV's & power walls. They have better longevity than LiIon, so are popular in applications that are not so weight sensitive. Like any battery, they will cause an electrical fire when shorted, but the battery contents won't burn.

SaltyNZ

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#2897598 6-Apr-2022 11:58

As well as the M3 RWD, pretty much all home-grown Chinese EV designs use LFP to the best of my knowledge. It's mainly Europe and the US who are using other chemistries with significant amounts of Nicket and Cobalt which is also going to sting them because of skyrocketing prices. Personally I think they'll all move to LFP probably sooner rather than later because the weight & volume advantage of the other chemistries is now more than offset by all the advantages of LFP (cost, safety, longevity) once you're designing an EV from clean sheet rather than trying to stuff as many kWh as possible into the space that used to be reserved for a fuel tank and/or combustion engine.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

MikeAqua

7779 posts

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#2897630 6-Apr-2022 12:51

tripper1000:

The fire fuel source is an EV fire isn't much different to an ICE, other that the fuel being held in lots of little containers that progressively feed the fire, rather than 1 big container.

On the fuel front I agree - but that's only half the fire. The other half is oxygen, which in an ICE fire comes from the air. So using a ship's engine room as an example, you close the fire flaps and flood the compartment with C02, or deploy an aerosol extinguisher (safer for people). My understanding is once the combustion chain is underway in a LiO battery, the fire doesn't need external oxygen, because the cathode releases it so they are very hard to smother. You can only contain.

Agree LFP is much safer. I use LFP in my kayaks for this reason. I wouldn't have a LiO on a combustible vessel.

Mike

MikeAqua

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#2897632 6-Apr-2022 12:53

frankv:

I wonder whether the whole vehicle deck could be flooded with inert gas for the whole voyage. e.g. route the exhaust from the ship's engines through the vehicle deck?

On a vessel that size, even if it's running LFO, the exhaust gas probably contains particulate carbon and carbon monoxide ... both combustable.

Mike

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frankv

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#2897696 6-Apr-2022 15:05

MikeAqua:

frankv:

I wonder whether the whole vehicle deck could be flooded with inert gas for the whole voyage. e.g. route the exhaust from the ship's engines through the vehicle deck?

On a vessel that size, even if it's running LFO, the exhaust gas probably contains particulate carbon and carbon monoxide ... both combustable.

Combustible doesn't matter if there's no (or very little) oxygen. If I understood it right, the way they flooded the Pike River mine with inert gas was was to feed the exhaust from a gas turbine into the mine.

Dingbatt

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#2897882 7-Apr-2022 06:02

I am putting this here rather than the Model 3 thread (maybe that needs to be changed to a ‘Tesla’ thread instead?).

Australian pricing announced* (according to Chasing Cars, at least) for the Model Y.

The standard range 2wd and performance models $AUD$68K and $AUD98K respectively (+ORCs).

https://www.chasingcars.com.au/news/new-car-prices/tesla-model-y-australian-pricing-revealed-for-electric-suv-exclusive/

So there is a chance the 2wd will sneak in below the magic number.

* Edit: Note this is a leak (now that I have read into it further) but it does provide hope for those holding out for a sub $80K MY.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

jonathan18

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#2897884 7-Apr-2022 06:30

Dingbatt:

I am putting this here rather than the Model 3 thread (maybe that needs to be changed to a ‘Tesla’ thread instead?).

Australian pricing announced* (according to Chasing Cars, at least) for the Model Y.

The standard range 2wd and performance models $AUD$68K and $AUD98K respectively (+ORCs).

https://www.chasingcars.com.au/news/new-car-prices/tesla-model-y-australian-pricing-revealed-for-electric-suv-exclusive/

So there is a chance the 2wd will sneak in below the magic number.

* Edit: Note this is a leak (now that I have read into it further) but it does provide hope for those holding out for a sub $80K MY.

Thanks for posting this. For the past few months I had been searching for such news every few days, but recently have been looking way less frequently. If that base model does come in under $80k I’ll be damn happy as I’d basically given up hope for this, given pricing elsewhere and all the recent increases (and even whether there would be a standard version released).

Thread-wise, another option is to just reopen the Y-specific thread from a while back. I imagine there’ll be a lot of interest in this model. https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=162&topicid=262025

Batman

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#2897886 7-Apr-2022 06:50

Dingbatt:

I am putting this here rather than the Model 3 thread (maybe that needs to be changed to a ‘Tesla’ thread instead?).

Australian pricing announced* (according to Chasing Cars, at least) for the Model Y.

The standard range 2wd and performance models $AUD$68K and $AUD98K respectively (+ORCs).

https://www.chasingcars.com.au/news/new-car-prices/tesla-model-y-australian-pricing-revealed-for-electric-suv-exclusive/

So there is a chance the 2wd will sneak in below the magic number.

* Edit: Note this is a leak (now that I have read into it further) but it does provide hope for those holding out for a sub $80K MY.

are EVs exempt from *33% LCT (luxury car tax) in AU?

LCT threshold i think is 69k

(*33% of value above LCT threshold)

Dingbatt

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#2897888 7-Apr-2022 07:08

Batman:

are EVs exempt from *33% LCT (luxury car tax) in AU?

LCT threshold i think is 69k

(*33% of value above LCT threshold)

From what I can tell from Aussie commentators the LCT applies, but if the $67990 price mooted is correct (thereby avoiding LCT) then there is a possibility of Tesla “reading the room” in NZ and sliding in under the bar for a white SR Model Y (say $NZD79990 incl ORCs).

Or the government could get real and make the limit $100K, because inflation would make an adjusted limit $90K in just 18 months (probable wait time for a MY).

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

GV27

5897 posts

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#2897905 7-Apr-2022 08:23

Dingbatt:

Or the government could get real and make the limit $100K, because inflation would make an adjusted limit $90K in just 18 months (probable wait time for a MY).

Go and check out the relevant price for other EVs in NZ vs. what they cost in Australia. It's quite an eye-opening and depressing exercise.

I have a suspicion that increasing the threshold so that one model type can fit under it would mean most of the existing model types under the current threshold would end up just under whatever the new one was.

Add it to the list of 'reasons why Australia is a far more appealing place than NZ' as a win for them.

RobDickinson

1524 posts

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#2897911 7-Apr-2022 08:49

Dingbatt:

Or the government could get real and make the limit $100K, because inflation would make an adjusted limit $90K in just 18 months (probable wait time for a MY).

Imagine a time when we'd hope EVs would get cheaper. Afik theres no provision for raising the $80k barrier in the CC legislation, and the rebate actually drops over time.

Dingbatt

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#2897927 7-Apr-2022 09:23

Yes, unfortunately my fear is that inflation and value of the NZD will cancel out the reducing cost of EVs. We are such a small market, the big players might just say “yeah whatever, take it or leave it”.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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