EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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#3077881 19-May-2023 13:55

Hyundai has discounted their 73kWh Ioniq 5 RWD & Tuson PHEV's into rebate territory as part of their field day sales.

Brings the number of long range, 1600kg towing, Rebate eligible pure EV's on the market to three (Adding to the EV6 LR RWD & Model Y).

Handsomedan

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#3077885 19-May-2023 14:07

Was looking at this yesterday:

1944412948

Made me wonder out loud - why are there no hybrid or electric utes by the "usual players" - i.e. Mazda, Toyota, Nissan etc?

Toyota in particular have a very good Hybrid platform in their SUV fleet - why not in the Hilux? Simply have a disclaimer that it's not intended for wading through rivers etc.

Handsome Dan Has Spoken.
Handsome Dan needs to stop adding three dots to every sentence...

Handsome Dan does not currently have a side hustle as the mascot for Yale

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DS248

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#3077896 19-May-2023 14:44

Scott3:

Hyundai has discounted their 73kWh Ioniq 5 RWD & Tuson PHEV's into rebate territory as part of their field day sales.

Brings the number of long range, 1600kg towing, Rebate eligible pure EV's on the market to three (Adding to the EV6 LR RWD & Model Y).

Now, if only the AWD version was discounted below $80k ... 🙁

(alas, 2WD not suitable for us).

Scott3

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#3077911 19-May-2023 15:37

Handsomedan:

Was looking at this yesterday:

Made me wonder out loud - why are there no hybrid or electric utes by the "usual players" - i.e. Mazda, Toyota, Nissan etc?

Toyota in particular have a very good Hybrid platform in their SUV fleet - why not in the Hilux? Simply have a disclaimer that it's not intended for wading through rivers etc.

As to why there are not hybrid utes:

Diesel fuel: The bulk of volume of utes sold in NZ are Thai built diesel utes. Diesel engines are relatively heavy, expensive and efficient compared to petrol, Leaving the tricky decision of giving up the diesel engine for a petrol hybrid (that the diesel may well beat for economy on the open road), or going for a diesel hybrid, which would end up really heavy and expensive, for relatively muted fuel gains given the diesel engine is already fairly efficient.
Cost - Ute market (excl the relatively low volume expensive offerings) is quite cost sensitive. You see the impact of this beyond the powertrain. Cheaper soultions are used where possiable - Leaf springs, part time rather than full time 4x4, drum breaks.
Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive tech has some limitations that basically rule it out for harsh off road use. Wheel's cannot be allowed to spin fast as there is a risk that the Epicyclic gearbox will overspeed one of the motors when the tires bite something grippy. Hence always fitted with aggressive traction control. This sucks in the likes of soft sand sand, where one needs to spin the wheels. AWD is generally taken care of by an electric rear axle (not a mechanical link). In my Lexus Hybrid SUV, this is only passively cooled, so only suitable to help out now and then, not used flat out for 30mis straight trying to drag a big trailer up a muddy slope.... Also Torque in reverse is less than comparable non hybrid. All this stuff is pritty much a deal breaker for the Low range SUV's and utes, so a new system will need to be designed. Toyota has done exactly that for their Tundra in the USA (i-Force MAX), but that system is not as efficient as their Hybrid Synergy drive.
The rest of the range is typically low hanging fruit to make hybrid first.

Should note that the Hilux / fortuner is expected to get a hybrid next year (Likely a Diesel Mild hybrid, would be toyota's first diesel hybrid ever, and the first mild hybrid in over a decade.)

A PHEV Ranger is also expected in 2024. This one is going to be crazy powerful, and likely will be their (non raptor) flagship offering.

Some speculation about a Mitsubishi PHEV ute too, but that will be further away.

Should note the USA has various Hybrid Pick up's, but their market is petrol engine dominated, and other than the Ford Maverick, they gains from the Hybid systems seem very small.

For full electric utes:

Cost. Utes are big and have poor aerodynamics, so will need a big battery / powertrain to get decent range & tow rating. A 64kWh kona costs $44k more than a petrol one. A decent ute offing will need roughly double the powertrain. Say $88k extra. Lets knock off $28k as the Kona is poor value at the moment, and say $60k extra.

Means something like an Hilusx 4wd SR5 Cruiser will go from $63k to $123k. A lot of money for something to spend on a what is a pretty basic vehicle.
Weight. Using the Kona again as a reference the 64kWh electric version is about 400kg heavier than the petrol version. Lets double this to scale for ute. We get 800kg. Perhaps subtract 100kg as diesel engines are heavy. Then we get 700kg.

Means the Hilux 4wd SR5 cruiser's payload will drop from about 950kg to about 250kg. Unworkable, so the vehicle will need to be re-engineered to lift the GVM. If we want to keep the same payload, GVM will need to be increased to 3750kg. This trips the NZ 3500kg light vehicle limit, meaning the electric hilux would Get a 90km/h speed limit, Need a COF etc. Again likely unworkable, so they would cut payload and features (4wd?) untill they stay under the magic 3500kg number.

To use examples.

The eT60 is a pritty basic ute, and many design decisions minimize both weight and cost For example:

2wd only
Motor hung off the rear solid axle diff housing, avoiding the cost and weight of either a driveshaft from the front, or an independent rear suspension setup.
Reduced payload (750kg where 900kg - 1100kg is class typical)
Reduced tow rating (1500kg where 3500kg is class typical) - Means less cooling etc needed.
General low specification. No cruise control, No EEB, No keyless entry
No Frunk (despite space being available)
No Spare tire (again despite space being available)

Even with Chinese brand pricing this just scraped in under the $80k rebate cap. Based on diesel ute prices, Toyota tend to run at around 25% more, so we would expect $100k if Toyota build an equivalent. (but I doubt toyota would accept the likes of a motor mounted on a live axle, so likely it would cost even more).

In the USA ford has the F-150 lightning. Priced from USD60,000 to USD98,000. My rule of thumb is to roughly double the USD price to get NZ pricing after GST, import costs, small market rip off etc. I.e. starting price of a ford Mach E is $42995 in the use. And it is $80k here, close enough.

If we happened to drive on the other side of the road (and had bigger carparks / higher vehicle weight limits), and toyota was to offer the F-150 lightning here, I would expect a $120k - $200k price range. I expect this would be a bit much for most kiwi ute buyers. Strongly suspect ford is selling at least the cheaper trims at a loss.

Also note that Utes buyers are generally quite risk adverse / conservative in their buying decisions. They are more brand loyal than buyers in other segments, and accept (and in some cases prefer) old / basic technology like solid rear axles, leaf springs, drum breaks etc. Stack that with brands being able to crank out cheap diesel Ranger / Hilux utes in Thailand, to sell high volumes at a good profit, and there is little motivation for change.

Scott3

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#3077914 19-May-2023 15:49

On the LDV eT60.

They are having a 2022 demonstrator sale $64,990 Driveaway (will already be registered, so no rebate).

https://ev.ldv.co.nz/evt60-demo

They are also running a promo on their "Edeliver 9 Bigger Van". Free upgrade to the 72kWh battery. Means the 72kWh battery version is now 79,990 incl GST and ORC so is rebate eligible, about $72k after rebate. 236km WLTP range.

Further to the discussion above, note how LDV has kept their GVM of their van's at 3500kg to avoid triggering heavy vehicle rules, and just lets the extra weight of bigger bodies and batteries eat into payload. Other than the cab chassis, where they have made the call to jump into heavy vehicle weights to give a useable payload for a custom body.

Dingbatt

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#3077919 19-May-2023 17:12

After I test drove the eT60 I came to the conclusion that it was basically thrown together to produce “something” before anyone else. Really only useful for virtue signalling rather than being able to do anything. It also offsets LDV’s emissions from its ICE vehicles. Because it is virtually useless as a Ute, it really needs a much higher equipment level, so the boss can use it as a mobile office.

According to the sales rep, GWM are running out their current Cannon range of utes in preparation for a PHEV Ute based on the “Tank” SUV (Sized between the Ranger and the Ram) and a fully electric Cannon.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

richms

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#3078086 20-May-2023 16:34

When I looked at the et60 it looked to have more in common with the changli mini ute thing than anything else on the road. Looked to be bits of whatever slapped together into something that at least worked but super low build quality.

I'm just hoping that the alpha motors wolf comes to something before I have to retire the falcon because it has a single cap variant with a big tray.

Just that cursed driving on the wrong side of the road problem that really limits vehicle selection here that might throw a spanner in getting one (Like the maverick and all the other awesome trucks available stateside)

Richard rich.ms

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HarmLessSolutions

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#3079585 25-May-2023 12:31

I guess many of us follow Tony Seba's presentations on disruptive technologies. This is the second in a recent series of videos by Tony that focuses on changes to transportation. If you're not familiar with Tony's terminologies and analogies check out the previous one in this series (and the following 3 while you're at it.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

everettpsycho

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#3079602 25-May-2023 13:46

BYD have added registrations of interest for the dolphin to their NZ site so looking promising that might be coming our way soon.

wellygary

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#3079609 25-May-2023 14:28

HarmLessSolutions:

I guess many of us follow Tony Seba's presentations on disruptive technologies. This is the second in a recent series of videos by Tony that focuses on changes to transportation. If you're not familiar with Tony's terminologies and analogies check out the previous one in this series (and the following 3 while you're at it.

TaaS that relies on Fully Autonomous vehicles has always been a bit like Fusion, "only X years away"

When they actually show a car driving from California to New York , as was promised over 6 years ago, I will take it more seriously,

Sure Autonomy may be coming for highway driving and other highly controlled environments,
But for every road its still a Tech Bros wet dream

HarmLessSolutions

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#3079620 25-May-2023 14:56

wellygary:

HarmLessSolutions:

I guess many of us follow Tony Seba's presentations on disruptive technologies. This is the second in a recent series of videos by Tony that focuses on changes to transportation. If you're not familiar with Tony's terminologies and analogies check out the previous one in this series (and the following 3 while you're at it.

TaaS that relies on Fully Autonomous vehicles has always been a bit like Fusion, "only X years away"

When they actually show a car driving from California to New York , as was promised over 6 years ago, I will take it more seriously,

Sure Autonomy may be coming for highway driving and other highly controlled environments,
But for every road its still a Tech Bros wet dream

TaaS is a natural progression resulting from the changes to the 5 foundational sectors of the world's economies (energy, transport, food, materials & information) that are already occurring converging. While Tony Seba is coming from a predominantly American urban perspective his predictions are hard to visualise from a provincial or rural point of view but keep in mind that a large percentage of the world's population live in cities and the manufacturing and supply sectors will work towards those markets. The remaining populations will be forced to innovate and adapt in order to cope with reduced availability of what we have previously expected from those 5 foundational sectors.

The world is embarking on a massive disruptional change in how we live. In the past decade that Tony Seba has been commentating and predicting the changes we are seeing he has been surprisingly accurate. Disregarding or denying his perspective of our world may not be a wise decision.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

wellygary

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#3079625 25-May-2023 15:15

HarmLessSolutions:

The world is embarking on a massive disruptional change in how we live. In the past decade that Tony Seba has been commentating and predicting the changes we are seeing he has been surprisingly accurate. Disregarding or denying his perspective of our world may not be a wise decision.

I'm not saying its not going to happen, but I think a lot of his predictions seem to be based on "ideal perfect consumers",

Questions abound like why the US makes/sells more trucks than car if they are a predominantly urban....

HarmLessSolutions

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#3079627 25-May-2023 15:25

wellygary:

HarmLessSolutions:

The world is embarking on a massive disruptional change in how we live. In the past decade that Tony Seba has been commentating and predicting the changes we are seeing he has been surprisingly accurate. Disregarding or denying his perspective of our world may not be a wise decision.

I'm not saying its not going to happen, but I think a lot of his predictions seem to be based on "ideal perfect consumers",

Questions abound like why the US makes/sells more trucks than car if they are a predominantly urban....

We're talking about a country with far too much confrontation and paranoia in its population's psyche. If you can work out their behavioural traits you're doing better than most people.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

djtOtago

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#3079634 25-May-2023 15:43

wellygary:

HarmLessSolutions:

The world is embarking on a massive disruptional change in how we live. In the past decade that Tony Seba has been commentating and predicting the changes we are seeing he has been surprisingly accurate. Disregarding or denying his perspective of our world may not be a wise decision.

I'm not saying its not going to happen, but I think a lot of his predictions seem to be based on "ideal perfect consumers",

Questions abound like why the US makes/sells more trucks than car if they are a predominantly urban....

Alot of their urban population don't own or purchase vehicles, so it makes vehicle ownership disproportionally high in favour of the country folk.

Mehrts

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#3079773 26-May-2023 10:34

Tesla Model Y's for delivery spotted in the US with the autopilot Hardware 4 (HW4).

This was a silent rollout for the Model Y. I think most people were expecting to see it on the Model 3 first, with the upcoming Project Highland refresh.

The Models S and X have already had this for a few months now.

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