EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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307 posts

Ultimate Geek

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#3081069 29-May-2023 21:06

Scott3:
What is potentially concerning for the USA / Canada is that this move increases tesla's dominance in the charging space. Probably more to do with who Tesla lets in that the physical connector. Tesla's supercharger network is already dominant, and the addition of Ford (and Aptera when they start delivering cars) with full access will provide tesla with more funds to further expand the network. This will put any car brands that don't agree to tesla's terms to be granted supercharger access will be at a competitive disadvantage. I Imagine Ford & Aptera got OK deals as first mover's, but that Tesla will charge big $$ to any further brands that want to join.

The (distant) second biggest charging network - Electrify America - is 80% owned by Volkswagen so for American (and Korean, Japanese, Chinese(?)) automakers it's really just partnering with the lessor evil.

Fiat-Chrysler (Stellantis) and Honda have both been paying Tesla hundreds of millions of dollars for green credits to beat emissions fines in another example of strange bedfellows in the ev world.

Scott3

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#3081179 29-May-2023 23:47

The difference with Electrify America is that they are far from a monopoly position. Even in absence of Tesla, put EVgo & ChargePoint together and they have more charge plugs.

But yeah, Tesla is overwhelmingly dominant. Other automakers will have little choice but to cut similar deals to ford if they want to sell EV's that are attractive for long distance use.

And I bet Tesla will be demanding on including a NACS native socket clause in each contract.

Obraik

2123 posts

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#3082275 30-May-2023 10:26

Tesla is opening up the Supercharger network, contract or not, with the Magic Dock, although potentially only for future V4 sites.

This Ford deal allows Ford drivers to use all existing Superchargers with the soon to be provided by Ford NACS to CCS1 adapter. I expect that this later detail will create some friction with Tesla owners as it will mean Ford vehicles blocking multiple charging bays due to the location of their charge ports.

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Scott3

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#3082282 30-May-2023 10:44

Negative plug in car story on Fairgo:

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/fair-go/clips/parking-fee-at-ev-charging-spot-leaves-plug-in-hybrid-driver-bemused

The subject buys a 2017 BMW 225xe plug in hybrid which was imported into NZ in June 2022 (fitted with a type 1 port, so likely from japan), for a long open road commute (50km each way).

Review here: https://www.autocar.co.nz/bmw-225xe/

The article states that the car gets 25km of electric range, which is in the same ball park as what the review.

Suspect the car is the 3.7kW charger version.

Subject planned to plug in at the Otrahonga fast charger while at work, allowing them to do half of each direction on electricity.

However the charger in Otrahonga is an openloop Fast charge unit fitted with three cords: 44kW AC, 50kW CCS1 & 50kW CHAdeMO.

Subject uses an adapter to convert the type 2 cord to a type 1, but realizes after the first charge, that the pricing structure (incl a 25c/min component) makes it woefully uneconomic to use on a very slow charging car.

Somebody then tells the subject that the 25c/min time component was a parking charge, which sends them on a wild good chase to the council.

Key points:

The fast charger is about a $50,000 unit. Best to think of the 25c/min as a rental fee for using the machine.
The fee structure is designed to discourage exactly this use type, where a slow charging car ties the charger up for 2 hours, potentially making other drivers wait hours for them to finish charging (Yeah I know these chargers can use the AC cord at the same time as one of the DC cords, but if a driver arrives in a Zoe, or a DC charging car where the cord can't reach without the BMW moving, they will need to wait.)
In general paid fast charging is expensive, compared to home power. Best to pick a plug-in car that can handle at least the majority of you commute on your home charging (exception for the Prius PHEV/prime, which are super economical on petrol)
I can see why charge.net decided to go against government public charging guidelines, and not include any form of AC charging at the bulk of their fast charge sites. Sucks for cars with fairly fast AC charging, and No DC charging (i.e. 44kW AC Zoe, 22kW AC Zoe, 22kW BYD E6), but avoids negative press like this.

richms

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#3082301 30-May-2023 11:20

PolicyGuy:

Is the Tesla plug+socket system actually better than CCS1, for some reasonable value of "better"?

Or is this Ford admitting that in the USA market, Tesla is the de facto standard-setting 400kg gorilla?

Its smaller as it uses the same pins for HVDC and AC, it has the standardization of the opener button on the handle, and as the US decided to go with type 1 CCS, the loss of 3 phase support in the tesla plug is a non-issue for them over there.

The horror stories about the other networks having a majority of the chargers at installations unavailable and tesla being on top of maintenance of them makes it the obvious choice to go with.

Richard rich.ms

HarmLessSolutions

969 posts

Ultimate Geek

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#3082302 30-May-2023 11:22

Scott3:

[snip]

Key points:

The fast charger is about a $50,000 unit. Best to think of the 25c/min as a rental fee for using the machine.
The fee structure is designed to discourage exactly this use type, where a slow charging car ties the charger up for 2 hours, potentially making other drivers wait hours for them to finish charging (Yeah I know these chargers can use the AC cord at the same time as one of the DC cords, but if a driver arrives in a Zoe, or a DC charging car where the cord can't reach without the BMW moving, they will need to wait.)
In general paid fast charging is expensive, compared to home power. Best to pick a plug-in car that can handle at least the majority of you commute on your home charging (exception for the Prius PHEV/prime, which are super economical on petrol)
I can see why charge.net decided to go against government public charging guidelines, and not include any form of AC charging at the bulk of their fast charge sites. Sucks for cars with fairly fast AC charging, and No DC charging (i.e. 44kW AC Zoe, 22kW AC Zoe, 22kW BYD E6), but avoids negative press like this.

I recently visited the Openloop charger at Innovation Park in Hamilton, when it was still free. A Kona was charging using the CCS lead so I tried hooking up to the Type 2 AC one. The AC one refused to work despite the instructions on the charger stating it would support multiple charges simultaneously. A call to Openloop resulted in them rebooting the unit which halted the Kona's charge (which was close to 100% anyway) and I took over that lead.

In the case of the guy on Fair Go I'm sure any EV owner with DC charge capability would totally support him being pinged a per minute rate if he was blocking the charger for a better suited vehicle.

As Fair Go the story was intended as a buyer beware piece based on an EV owner who hadn't done his homework prior to purchase which resulted in him buying a car that wasn't suited to his intended use model but I'm already seeing comments elsewhere online from EV haters using it as a case against EVs in general.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

SaltyNZ

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2degrees

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#3082310 30-May-2023 11:41

HarmLessSolutions:

In the case of the guy on Fair Go I'm sure any EV owner with DC charge capability would totally support him being pinged a per minute rate if he was blocking the charger for a better suited vehicle.

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richms

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#3082314 30-May-2023 11:43

I would support a min charge rate on things so that when things get above 85ish and really slow down, you get kicked off it so someone else can use it if there is a queue, but the only way they would know there is a queue is if it was all nicely managed by a competent software company instead of the hodgepodge mess of apps bolted onto other companies chargers like everyone that is not tesla have.

Richard rich.ms

RunningMan

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#3082317 30-May-2023 11:50

The issue with the Fair Go case is 2 fold:

1) Primary issue is wrong vehicle for the use case described (100km return commute on rural roads). Not enough info in the story to know why that vehicle was chosen and/or recommended though
2) Secondary is using a paid public charger at such a slow rate and not understanding the fee structure - it's simply going to be expensive because the operator wants to get you charged and moved on so the next customer can use the hardware.

It seems to be the only public charger in Ōtorohanga though - simplest solution might be to see if they could charge at work and pay for the energy used.

RunningMan

8953 posts

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#3082320 30-May-2023 11:55

richms:

I would support a min charge rate on things so that when things get above 85ish and really slow down, you get kicked off it so someone else can use it if there is a queue, .

Chargenet have a similar function on some (50kW Tritium?) chargers to default to stopping at 80%. Not quite the same, but similar result - not hogging a charger when it can only operate very slowly.

SaltyNZ

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2degrees

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#3082322 30-May-2023 11:59

RunningMan:

Chargenet have a similar function on some (50kW Tritium?) chargers to default to stopping at 80%. Not quite the same, but similar result - not hogging a charger when it can only operate very slowly.

And if you override it, they send you an SMS to remind you that you're going slow and should consider moving along unless it's really necessary.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

trig42

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#3082324 30-May-2023 12:03

RunningMan:

The issue with the Fair Go case is 2 fold:

1) Primary issue is wrong vehicle for the use case described (100km return commute on rural roads). Not enough info in the story to know why that vehicle was chosen and/or recommended though
2) Secondary is using a paid public charger at such a slow rate and not understanding the fee structure - it's simply going to be expensive because the operator wants to get you charged and moved on so the next customer can use the hardware.

It seems to be the only public charger in Ōtorohanga though - simplest solution might be to see if they could charge at work and pay for the energy used.

Yep, I saw the story and wondered two things

1 - why is this a story at all - pretty obvious if you are using public chargers they will cost (especially if your vehicle charges very slow)

2 - Why isn't he charging at work? I think that car has a 9kWh battery - that'd be about $2 to charge daily?

richms

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#3082325 30-May-2023 12:08

trig42:

Yep, I saw the story and wondered two things

1 - why is this a story at all - pretty obvious if you are using public chargers they will cost (especially if your vehicle charges very slow)

2 - Why isn't he charging at work? I think that car has a 9kWh battery - that'd be about $2 to charge daily?

It's going to create more interaction than a real problem. Remember that the show exists to sell viewers to their advertisers so if they put dumb crap that gets everyone bickering about it and sending the link to other people to watch it then thats a positive for them.

Story like "lady buys suitable car and has no problems" is not going to attract the same viewership.

Richard rich.ms

Scott3

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#3082327 30-May-2023 12:10

Yeah the point that a car charging for 2 hours on the only fast charger in town being detrimental to other EV's wasn't really covered in the article.

HarmLessSolutions:

I recently visited the Openloop charger at Innovation Park in Hamilton, when it was still free. A Kona was charging using the CCS lead so I tried hooking up to the Type 2 AC one. The AC one refused to work despite the instructions on the charger stating it would support multiple charges simultaneously. A call to Openloop resulted in them rebooting the unit which halted the Kona's charge (which was close to 100% anyway) and I took over that lead.

In the case of the guy on Fair Go I'm sure any EV owner with DC charge capability would totally support him being pinged a per minute rate if he was blocking the charger for a better suited vehicle.

As Fair Go the story was intended as a buyer beware piece based on an EV owner who hadn't done his homework prior to purchase which resulted in him buying a car that wasn't suited to his intended use model but I'm already seeing comments elsewhere online from EV haters using it as a case against EVs in general.

No idea why this didn't work. I have had a tesla charging on AC while waiting for me to finish with the DC side of a similar-looking openloop charger before.

Regardless it is kind of moot. The pricing structure is set up based on a car occupying the cord / station. And if a last generation Zoe or BYD E6 came along, them waiting 2 hours for this PHEV isn't ideal at all.

richms:

I would support a min charge rate on things so that when things get above 85ish and really slow down, you get kicked off it so someone else can use it if there is a queue, but the only way they would know there is a queue is if it was all nicely managed by a competent software company instead of the hodgepodge mess of apps bolted onto other companies chargers like everyone that is not tesla have.

Charge.net did a min charge on their hypercharge for a while, but ultimately got rid of it. I think it was just a bit confusing, and they have now simplified their fee structure to a per kWh charge only.

Of course charge.net don't have AC ports on all the chargers they own, so don't need to deal with this issue. Sure the liked of Out lander PHEV's with their slow DC charge rates will get off likely, but at least they are likely to be done and leave in 25mins or so (and at 80c/kWh many will just run on petrol instead). And I guess their stats show that most people have worked out that charging above 80 - 90% on is super slow on many car's so don't bother regardless of price.

HarmLessSolutions

969 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

#3082330 30-May-2023 12:19

RunningMan:

The issue with the Fair Go case is 2 fold:

1) Primary issue is wrong vehicle for the use case described (100km return commute on rural roads). Not enough info in the story to know why that vehicle was chosen and/or recommended though
2) Secondary is using a paid public charger at such a slow rate and not understanding the fee structure - it's simply going to be expensive because the operator wants to get you charged and moved on so the next customer can use the hardware.

It seems to be the only public charger in Ōtorohanga though - simplest solution might be to see if they could charge at work and pay for the energy used.

According to Plugshare there's also 2 chargers in Kihikihi and 4 in Te Awamutu but none of those have AC capability.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

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