EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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Master Geek
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#3092321 19-Jun-2023 23:03

Obraik:
We have our first under $40k EV! Granted, that takes the rebate into account, but MG has announced that the MG4 will start at $46,990 before the $7015 rebate

Is that the one with the LFP battery?

CYaBro

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#3092323 19-Jun-2023 23:40

BlargHonk:
Obraik:
We have our first under $40k EV! Granted, that takes the rebate into account, but MG has announced that the MG4 will start at $46,990 before the $7015 rebate

Is that the one with the LFP battery?

Pretty sure all MG4 models have the LFP battery except the 77KWh long range.

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robjg63

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#3092381 20-Jun-2023 07:35

Hard to tell - they seem to have a mixture of batteries depending on where you look.

But this site https://zecar.com/reviews/2023-mg-4-price-and-specs

says 51kWh is LFP, 62kWh NCM and 77kWh - Unknown - probably NCM.

But the pricing they announced is likely to hurt the BYD Dolphin I reckon.

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tukapa1

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#3092487 20-Jun-2023 13:21

robjg63:
Hard to tell - they seem to have a mixture of batteries depending on where you look.

But this site https://zecar.com/reviews/2023-mg-4-price-and-specs

says 51kWh is LFP, 62kWh NCM and 77kWh - Unknown - probably NCM.

But the pricing they announced is likely to hurt the BYD Dolphin I reckon.

So what battery type should we be looking for? And why?

Just looking at EV options now myself. Was keen on the Dolphin until they announced the price.

Batman

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#3092489 20-Jun-2023 13:25

tukapa1:

So what battery type should we be looking for? And why?

Just looking at EV options now myself. Was keen on the Dolphin until they announced the price.

depends on what you want

LFP - bulkier, less chance of fire, lower peak current output, doesn't mind how you charge, apparently less degradation (i'd like to see proof over time before i agree with the internet)

NCM - less bulky, high chance of fire, high peak current output, does not like to be charged, standard degradation

Obraik

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#3092496 20-Jun-2023 13:54

Batman:

depends on what you want

LFP - bulkier, less chance of fire, lower peak current output, doesn't mind how you charge, apparently less degradation (i'd like to see proof over time before i agree with the internet)

NCM - less bulky, high chance of fire, high peak current output, does not like to be charged, standard degradation

Just to clarify, a NCM pack isn't going to burst into flames. LFP is more stable than NCM, though. Degradation isn't just determined by its chemistry, it's more influenced by its thermal management. Something like a Leaf with no active management will have noticeable degradation while others like a Hyundai, Kia, Tesla, MG, etc will have minimal degradation. I assumed by "does not like to be charged" you mean beyond 90% on a regular basis?

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SaltyNZ

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#3092501 20-Jun-2023 14:06

Batman:

LFP - bulkier, less chance of fire, lower peak current output, doesn't mind how you charge, apparently less degradation (i'd like to see proof over time before i agree with the internet)

They are also free of cobalt with its possibly dubious human rights implications, which otherwise the denialists always try to gotcha with.

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SaltyNZ

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#3092502 20-Jun-2023 14:07

Obraik:

I assumed by "does not like to be charged" you mean beyond 90% on a regular basis?

Yes, for instance Tesla recommend daily charging to 80% for the NMC cars, and for LFP will override you to go to 100% at least once a week even if you tell it not to.

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Batman

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#3092504 20-Jun-2023 14:13

Obraik:

Just to clarify, a NCM pack isn't going to burst into flames. LFP is more stable than NCM, though.

not normally but it's not very stable compound inherently

robjg63

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#3092610 20-Jun-2023 15:00

LFP or LiFePH04 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) is regarded as a bit more durable and longer lasting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

LFP does not get hurt by regular draining to 0% and charging to 100% - So theoretically, you will do no harm using all of the battery capacity regularly.

Some of the other chemistries, can be suffer damage when repeatedly drained or charged to 100% (like NCM apparently).

Effectively, with NCM, you could say (in an ideal world), you would regularly only use the 'middle' 60% of the battery (ie from 20%-80%) if you wanted to last as long as possible.

LFP are also rated to a longer number of charge cycles over their life span.

That wiki page says:

LFP chemistry offers a considerably longer cycle life than other lithium-ion chemistries. Under most conditions it supports more than 3,000 cycles, and under optimal conditions it supports more than 10,000 cycles. NMC batteries support about 1,000 to 2,300 cycles, depending on conditions.

Personally, I would go for more robust and hopefully longer life over slightly lighter and energy denser batteries.

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SaltyNZ

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#3092613 20-Jun-2023 15:04

robjg63:

Personally, I would go for more robust and hopefully longer life over slightly lighter and energy denser batteries.

As a former Leaf owner, this was high on my list of requirements also.

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HarmLessSolutions

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#3092622 20-Jun-2023 15:31

tukapa1:
robjg63:

Hard to tell - they seem to have a mixture of batteries depending on where you look.

But this site https://zecar.com/reviews/2023-mg-4-price-and-specs

says 51kWh is LFP, 62kWh NCM and 77kWh - Unknown - probably NCM.

But the pricing they announced is likely to hurt the BYD Dolphin I reckon.

So what battery type should we be looking for? And why?

Just looking at EV options now myself. Was keen on the Dolphin until they announced the price.

The 'spider chart' graphics such those here: http://www.eleart-battery.com/TECHNOLOGY/What-is-Lifepo4e.html are great visualisations of chemistry comparisons. And Sodium Ion battery technology is on the horizon too.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

Scott3

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#3092814 20-Jun-2023 22:36

robjg63:

Hard to tell - they seem to have a mixture of batteries depending on where you look.

But this site https://zecar.com/reviews/2023-mg-4-price-and-specs

says 51kWh is LFP, 62kWh NCM and 77kWh - Unknown - probably NCM.

But the pricing they announced is likely to hurt the BYD Dolphin I reckon.

I don't mean to rub in what is likely a typo, but others have have copied the acronym from your post.

For Clarity, This chemistry is most commonly referred to (including in OP's source) as nickel-manganese-cobalt (NMC)

tukapa1:

So what battery type should we be looking for? And why?

Just looking at EV options now myself. Was keen on the Dolphin until they announced the price.

Vast majority of EV's use some type of NMC chemistry. It has good energy density per weight, fast charges fast, has an adequate safety profile, and in modern ev's with bigger well managed batteries, the 1000 - 2000 (full) cycle life should be plenty to last out the life of the vehicle with only mild degradation. Brands generally recommend only charging to 80%, unless you plan on a long trip to minimize degradation.

A Smaller Number of EV's use LFP chemistry. The smaller battery versions of Tesla 3 & Y shipped from the china factory (NZ cars are), All BYD's, Small battery versions of MG ZE EV & MG4, small battery GWM Ora.

LFP advantages:

Great safety profile, can resist the likes of cell punctures without fire.
Great cycle life (3000 - 10,000 full cycles)
Minimal degradation, and brands generally advise charging to 100% (or don't advise any particular behavior)

LFP disadvantages:

Lower energy density per weight (i.e. the battery is a lot heavier for a given capacity)
Somewhat slower fast charging speeds (but not bad. i.e. the model 3 LFP can charge from 10 - 80% in 25mins, vs 18min for the NMC EV6)
Some issues around charge speed in the extreme cold (well below freezing point, so not a big deal in NZ)

There are also a bunch of other batteries, one of the more common is LiPo. Very high power output for it's weight, so popular for racing, and very weight sensitive applications like drones. Much more volatile, and rarely used in road going EV's.

As to what kind of battery to get, this is largely determined by what kind of car you are looking for. With the exception of the Atto 3 extended range, LFP batteries are typically only available on the Standard range versions of cars, so if you want a car with 500+ km of rated range, NMC is your only option.

But a lot of people (especially ex leaf owners) really like the ideal of a LFP battery that they can charge to 100% every day, and expect to well outlast the car.

SaltyNZ

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2degrees

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#3092857 21-Jun-2023 09:02

Scott3:

As to what kind of battery to get, this is largely determined by what kind of car you are looking for. With the exception of the Atto 3 extended range, LFP batteries are typically only available on the Standard range versions of cars, so if you want a car with 500+ km of rated range, NMC is your only option.

But a lot of people (especially ex leaf owners) really like the ideal of a LFP battery that they can charge to 100% every day, and expect to well outlast the car.

The super extra long range versions don't really bother me. I've down Warkworth to Wellington and back in both a RWD Model 3 and an MG ZS EV. The ZS can get you there in day, but be prepared for a more relaxing trip with more breaks. The RWD Model 3 can get you there in the same time as an ICE, once you factor in the fact that only a moron is going to try to drive 750km without stopping for lunch.

But I don't do that trip very often. 99.99% of trips are much shorter than the range of either car, so we only need to charge them once every few days.

In short, I don't see the point of spending another $15K on slightly longer range that will have a shorter life and reduce my charging stops by one, once a year.

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Obraik

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#3092869 21-Jun-2023 09:45

SaltyNZ:

In short, I don't see the point of spending another $15K on slightly longer range that will have a shorter life and reduce my charging stops by one, once a year.

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