rail between Auckland, Bay of Plenty and the Waikato

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#1849095 20-Aug-2017 10:41

surfisup1000:

One question I have, is why it costs so much to tunnel in NZ.

I think it's a matter of geology.

Iceland is volcanic, which basically means solid rock. NZ (and certainly the Manawatu Gorge) is mostly sedimentary, with lots of weak unconsolidated rock. So almost everywhere you tunnel in NZ you have to do a lot more to support the roof and deal with water seepage.

ObidiahSlope

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#1849150 20-Aug-2017 12:00

I am a South Islander but I am a bit of a train spotter so I will make a whitebait patties worth of comment.

"Build it and they will come" is rightly treated with skepticism however Auckland public transport projects begun on this premise such as Britomart North Shore Busway and electrification have a history of success. This strengthens the "give it a go" argument.

If a decision maker was fairly certain the number of people traveling between Foggy Hollow and Jaffaville would increase substantially over time and undertook the task of coming up with a cost effective solution would they choose an expensive motorway or passenger rail over upgraded tracks?

If I was the fat controller of Kiwirail preparing for passenger rail between these two cities I take these initial steps;

A second rail bridge over the Waikato River at Ngaruawahia.

Double track the section through the swamp. Also upgrade the existing track through this section. I understand the formation under the track is spongy resulting in speed restrictions.

Even if passenger rail did not proceed these projects would benefit their freight operations.

Obsequious hypocrite

rb99

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#1849170 20-Aug-2017 12:55

Personally I'm just looking forward to the rail equivalent of this. Holds breath (not)

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11907668

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

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old3eyes

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#1849178 20-Aug-2017 13:20

More bribes. Like all those bridges they promised up north last by election.

Regards,

Old3eyes

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#1849193 20-Aug-2017 13:30

old3eyes: More bribes. Like all those bridges they promised up north last by election.

More bribes. Hey, I'm not proud. If anyone wants to offer some to the Eastern BOP, feel free...

Edit: grammar

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

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Handle9

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#1849253 20-Aug-2017 15:25

I find the East - West link curious. The National government continually opposes rail on the basis of the economic return. The East - West link has a business case analysis (BCA) of 1.9 at absolute best case (more likely around 1.3 depending on what numbers you believe). It normally takes a BCA of 3 or greater to get a roading project up off the ground. I don't oppose the project but it appears in this case that there is more at play here than other projects.

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MikeAqua

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#1849258 20-Aug-2017 15:35

I still think Auckland is too small to justify that level of rail investment.

The comparison that comes to mind is Sydney, which has a comparable rail system (but not rapid) to what is being promoted by Greater Auckland.

Mike

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#1849265 20-Aug-2017 16:11

rb99:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11907668

Having recently done some driving in the USA (12 States), I think the above is minimal. Over there, any road with significant traffic is at least 4 lanes, with usually a wide median between the opposing traffic. Major roads generally don't go through towns. That makes it much easier to drive than here, and much quicker too; you're very rarely held up by slow trucks for any distance. And speed limits were 70mph (120kph) on most interstates I drove on.

NZ is a *long* way behind in roading infrastructure. We should have 4 lanes or more and 120kph all the way from Auckland to Wellington, and Picton to Invercargill.

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#1849290 20-Aug-2017 17:25

frankv:

Having recently done some driving in the USA (12 States) .... you're very rarely held up by slow trucks for any distance. And speed limits were 70mph (120kph) on most interstates I drove on.

It's fantastic isn't it. I did Albuquerque to nearly the Grand Canyon (Flagstaff, AZ) in one longish day with stops at tourist attractions en-route.

I'd hired some little Saturn POS hatchback and most of the way I just picked a truck doing 70+ mph, sat behind it and enjoyed the countryside.

Mike

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#1849419 20-Aug-2017 20:27

I prefer the idea of more, good quality wide roads to rail lines. You will always have the loading/unloading and local transport inefficiency with rail. Roads are versatile - cars, EV cars, cars with trailers, driverless cars, buses, bikes, EV bikes etc etc. The Northland connection could be a huge boost for the region

Rikkitic

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#1849497 20-Aug-2017 21:32

I still prefer trains. There should be a place for cars as well, but not instead of.

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#1849501 20-Aug-2017 21:40

MikeAqua:

frankv:

Having recently done some driving in the USA (12 States) .... you're very rarely held up by slow trucks for any distance. And speed limits were 70mph (120kph) on most interstates I drove on.

It's fantastic isn't it. I did Albuquerque to nearly the Grand Canyon (Flagstaff, AZ) in one longish day with stops at tourist attractions en-route.

I'd hired some little Saturn POS hatchback and most of the way I just picked a truck doing 70+ mph, sat behind it and enjoyed the countryside.

Did a rush back from the canyon to central Louisiana for Thanksgiving, long drive, but is fast transport. Just watch getting into the groove and drifting to an offramp, oops!

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#1849504 20-Aug-2017 21:43

Rikkitic:

I still prefer trains. There should be a place for cars as well, but not instead of.

Agree. If we had an easy way to grab a bus or train, no parking fuss. For most of us thats "why??" If its easy and frequent enough, less hassle than a car. They should block off CBD to force it

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#1850036 21-Aug-2017 21:35

shk292:
I prefer the idea of more, good quality wide roads to rail lines. You will always have the loading/unloading and local transport inefficiency with rail. Roads are versatile - cars, EV cars, cars with trailers, driverless cars, buses, bikes, EV bikes etc etc. The Northland connection could be a huge boost for the region

The only conclusion that can reasonably be reached about building yet more roads is that they do not work as the only solution. Efficient and effective movement of large populations need mass transit systems that allow movements quickly and efficiently.

Roads bog down and don't scale which is why they don't work in any large city that I am aware. Contrast this with cities that have effective rail systems that can effectively move mass populations long distances. They are far more effective than cities that rely on roads alone.

MikeAqua

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#1850422 22-Aug-2017 15:38

shk292:

I prefer the idea of more, good quality wide roads to rail lines. You will always have the loading/unloading and local transport inefficiency with rail. Roads are versatile - cars, EV cars, cars with trailers, driverless cars, buses, bikes, EV bikes etc etc. The Northland connection could be a huge boost for the region

Cars have their inefficiencies too - parking, intersections etc etc.

If I visit a city with good public transport for work or pleasure I don't bother with a car. For example Singapore, Brussels, Barcelona, Sydney, Melbourne (except airport, grrr!), Brisbane, SFO, Vegas ... even Albuquerque!

Auckland is not (yet) a city with consistently good public transport. But here is a tip, recommended to me by a local. To get from the airport to the city take the Onehunga bus-line and then train to the central station. Faster and cheaper than the airport bus.

Mike

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