Ditch Road User Charges?

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#2285413 29-Jul-2019 22:11

Lias:

Not just EV's, cyclists need to be taxed as well. They pay nothing towards using the roads or all these expensive, controversial, hate by everyone but them cycleways, and they pay no ACC levies. Motorcyclists have to pay extortionate ACC levies because of their alleged high risk, it's high time riding a push bike cost $2000/year in ACC levies too.

Nice troll.

But how are you going to get my nine year old to pay?

He's too busy blowing his money on lollies and robucks.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

frankv

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#2285442 30-Jul-2019 06:55

Kyanar:

Numerous countries, states, and territories have looked into whether a bicycle registration regime would work. All have come to the conclusion that the registration scheme is simply uneconomical, as it would cost more to set up than it would raise, same as low value import GST.

Data point: When I lived in Switzerland (1985-86) bicycles were required to be registered. Don't know if they still are.

Googling finds numerous US cities with bicycle registration. e.g. https://www.honolulu.gov/bicycle/bicycleeducation/bicycle-registration.html http://www.burlingtonnc.gov/1987/Bicycle-Registration

However, it appears that these are mostly aimed at combatting bicycle theft.

Dratsab

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#2285455 30-Jul-2019 07:41

Here's an article which addresses 'RUC' or registration (whatever you want to call it) for cyclists quite well.

Lias

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#2285628 30-Jul-2019 11:54

jfanning:

Pardon? What do you think making a cyclist pay a registration fee will achieve? Are you willing to fund this? There is no way a cyclist would be paying the entire cost to manage a system, and what happens with a bike that you only ride off road, do you register this, and if so, why?

A registration / licensing system allows people to be charged higher ACC levies like motorcyclists are. The normal argument from cyclists is that they pay ACC levies via Earners Levies etc, but so do vehicle drivers. Vehicles then have to pay additional levies with motorcyclists in particular having to pay huge ACC levies. Why shouldn't cyclists, skateboarders, e-scooter riders etc all pay those additional ACC levies? Why is one form of personal transport exempt from additional taxation but others aren't?

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#2285636 30-Jul-2019 12:09

Kyanar:

Again, way off base. Which is starting to look like a trend anytime someone says the word "cyclist" around you.

Numerous countries, states, and territories have looked into whether a bicycle registration regime would work. All have come to the conclusion that the registration scheme is simply uneconomical, as it would cost more to set up than it would raise, same as low value import GST. A registration system that breaks even or loses money just to screw cyclists to appease motorists like yourself is not an efficient use of taxpayer money.

Just because the individual cannot ride or drive more than one vehicle at a time, doesn't mean noone else can. The ACC levy covers anyone who uses the vehicle, not just the driver or rider. You may or may not think it's fair to be charged multiple sets of levies, and that's a separate discussion entirely, but to use it to fuel your hate-rant of cyclists is just silly.

FWIW I don't hate cyclists, my father was a long distance cyclist, I rode everywhere as a kid, and I've got plenty of friends who are cyclists. I do however have a strong dislike of the behaviour of some cyclists, and an even stronger dislike of the vocal militant cyclist brigade which colours my response to cycle related things.

I don't really care if such a scheme is uneconomic, I'd rather they did it and lost money so that at least everyone gets screwed over equally. Having one type of transport taxed and another type not offends my sense of fair play. I'd love to buy a new motorbike and use that instead of my car, but it's just so stupidly expensive to register one now it's not practical.. Whereas people get to ride their pushbikes or e-bikes for free.. How the heck is that fair?

MikeB4

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#2285643 30-Jul-2019 12:18

Lias:

Kyanar:

Again, way off base. Which is starting to look like a trend anytime someone says the word "cyclist" around you.

Numerous countries, states, and territories have looked into whether a bicycle registration regime would work. All have come to the conclusion that the registration scheme is simply uneconomical, as it would cost more to set up than it would raise, same as low value import GST. A registration system that breaks even or loses money just to screw cyclists to appease motorists like yourself is not an efficient use of taxpayer money.

Just because the individual cannot ride or drive more than one vehicle at a time, doesn't mean noone else can. The ACC levy covers anyone who uses the vehicle, not just the driver or rider. You may or may not think it's fair to be charged multiple sets of levies, and that's a separate discussion entirely, but to use it to fuel your hate-rant of cyclists is just silly.

FWIW I don't hate cyclists, my father was a long distance cyclist, I rode everywhere as a kid, and I've got plenty of friends who are cyclists. I do however have a strong dislike of the behaviour of some cyclists, and an even stronger dislike of the vocal militant cyclist brigade which colours my response to cycle related things.

I don't really care if such a scheme is uneconomic, I'd rather they did it and lost money so that at least everyone gets screwed over equally. Having one type of transport taxed and another type not offends my sense of fair play. I'd love to buy a new motorbike and use that instead of my car, but it's just so stupidly expensive to register one now it's not practical.. Whereas people get to ride their pushbikes or e-bikes for free.. How the heck is that fair?

Could you please point me to the legislation that exempts cyclists from paying Taxes, Rates and ACC levies.

elpenguino

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#2285646 30-Jul-2019 12:21

Lias:

Kyanar:

Again, way off base. Which is starting to look like a trend anytime someone says the word "cyclist" around you.

Numerous countries, states, and territories have looked into whether a bicycle registration regime would work. All have come to the conclusion that the registration scheme is simply uneconomical, as it would cost more to set up than it would raise, same as low value import GST. A registration system that breaks even or loses money just to screw cyclists to appease motorists like yourself is not an efficient use of taxpayer money.

Just because the individual cannot ride or drive more than one vehicle at a time, doesn't mean noone else can. The ACC levy covers anyone who uses the vehicle, not just the driver or rider. You may or may not think it's fair to be charged multiple sets of levies, and that's a separate discussion entirely, but to use it to fuel your hate-rant of cyclists is just silly.

FWIW I don't hate cyclists, my father was a long distance cyclist, I rode everywhere as a kid, and I've got plenty of friends who are cyclists. I do however have a strong dislike of the behaviour of some cyclists, and an even stronger dislike of the vocal militant cyclist brigade which colours my response to cycle related things.

I don't really care if such a scheme is uneconomic, I'd rather they did it and lost money so that at least everyone gets screwed over equally. Having one type of transport taxed and another type not offends my sense of fair play. I'd love to buy a new motorbike and use that instead of my car, but it's just so stupidly expensive to register one now it's not practical.. Whereas people get to ride their pushbikes or e-bikes for free.. How the heck is that fair?

It sounds like your real issue is you feel 'screwed over' by using a car. What's the problem, do you have a bad commute by car or something?

Wanting to drag others down seems spiteful.

I chuckle to myself when I hear drivers complain about cyclists behaviour. As if car drivers can be held up as paragons of virtue. Wait at any stop sign or red light and watch drivers breeze through without giving an 1/8th of a fook for anyone else's safety.

Since your problem is cyclists' behaviour, what happened when you wrote to the police commissioner?

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

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Lias

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#2285654 30-Jul-2019 12:35

MikeB4:

Could you please point me to the legislation that exempts cyclists from paying Taxes, Rates and ACC levies.

You appear to be being obtuse. Almost everyone pays them, however my point is that motorists pay _additional_ ones, and motorcyclists pay huge additional ones, whereas other forms of transport (e.g. cyclists) don't. It's inconsistent and unfair.

jfanning

438 posts

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#2285655 30-Jul-2019 12:39

Lias:

A registration / licensing system allows people to be charged higher ACC levies like motorcyclists are. The normal argument from cyclists is that they pay ACC levies via Earners Levies etc, but so do vehicle drivers. Vehicles then have to pay additional levies with motorcyclists in particular having to pay huge ACC levies. Why shouldn't cyclists, skateboarders, e-scooter riders etc all pay those additional ACC levies? Why is one form of personal transport exempt from additional taxation but others aren't?

Unfortunately ACC is a non fault insurance scheme, so the cost is put back to the person who got injured, not who caused the injury. So if you travel in a vehicle where if you have an accident regardless of who caused it the cost is going to be higher. I would guess that motorcycles generally go faster than most cyclists, I would guess that when a motorcycle crashes, either by themselves, or when another party crashes into them, the damage will be significantly higher than a cyclists crashing into something, or a skateboarder etc.

So, is it worth the cost to implement a registration system, to collect ACC (and how did the topic get onto ACC, it was about RUC to start with), which is minor compared to the likes of cars or motorbikes. I would say no.

Also, lets have a look at some stats

in 2016,

Motorcycle crashes made up 16% of deaths (52), and 10% (1205) of road injuries

Cyclists made up 6% (5) of deaths, and 560 police reported injuries

Pedestrians made up 7% (25) deaths, 575 minor injuries, and 257 major injuries

So according to that it is more dangerous to be a pedestrian than a cyclist. Why aren't we registering all pedestrians, we should be charging them an ACC levy to walk around

jfanning

438 posts

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#2285658 30-Jul-2019 12:41

Lias:

FWIW I don't hate cyclists, my father was a long distance cyclist, I rode everywhere as a kid, and I've got plenty of friends who are cyclists. I do however have a strong dislike of the behaviour of some cyclists, and an even stronger dislike of the vocal militant cyclist brigade which colours my response to cycle related things.

What about the cars that ignore cyclists at roundabouts? Cars that drive very close to cyclists when passing them? Is that acceptable?

Lias:

I don't really care if such a scheme is uneconomic, I'd rather they did it and lost money so that at least everyone gets screwed over equally. Having one type of transport taxed and another type not offends my sense of fair play. I'd love to buy a new motorbike and use that instead of my car, but it's just so stupidly expensive to register one now it's not practical.. Whereas people get to ride their pushbikes or e-bikes for free.. How the heck is that fair?

They don't get to ride them for free, you will they don't do anywhere near the damage that car or motorbike does so there isn't the need to charge them extra

jfanning

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#2285659 30-Jul-2019 12:42

Lias:

You appear to be being obtuse. Almost everyone pays them, however my point is that motorists pay _additional_ ones, and motorcyclists pay huge additional ones, whereas other forms of transport (e.g. cyclists) don't. It's inconsistent and unfair.

Maybe you should question why ACC does that

Lias

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#2285663 30-Jul-2019 12:53

elpenguino:

Wanting to drag others down seems spiteful.

I chuckle to myself when I hear drivers complain about cyclists behaviour. As if car drivers can be held up as paragons of virtue. Wait at any stop sign or red light and watch drivers breeze through without giving an 1/8th of a fook for anyone else's safety.

I guess it could be seen as spiteful, but I just see it as fairness (or a lack their of). Cyclists pay nothing, cars pay a bit, trucks pay a bit, motorcyclists pay a fortune. Just fails my "fair and just" test.

I won't even try and pretend that every other road user is a paragon of virtue, but outside of gangs they don't tend to be douchebags in packs. Group riders failing to keep left is by far my biggest personal gripe about cyclist behaviour.

MikeB4

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#2285666 30-Jul-2019 12:57

Lias:

MikeB4:

Could you please point me to the legislation that exempts cyclists from paying Taxes, Rates and ACC levies.

You appear to be being obtuse. Almost everyone pays them, however my point is that motorists pay _additional_ ones, and motorcyclists pay huge additional ones, whereas other forms of transport (e.g. cyclists) don't. It's inconsistent and unfair.

Your posts seem to taking the stand that motorists and cyclists are not the same folks. Excluding children I would put forward that the majority of cyclists are also motorists and or users of public transport. Road based public transport has the RUCs taken into account in their ticket pricing and therefore being paid by these folk. Road and related costs are not solely funded by RUCs, they are also funded by general taxation and local body rates so cyclists are funding road infrastructure as are mobility scooter, wheelchair users and pedestrians.

Lias

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#2285715 30-Jul-2019 13:15

MikeB4:

Your posts seem to taking the stand that motorists and cyclists are not the same folks. Excluding children I would put forward that the majority of cyclists are also motorists and or users of public transport. Road based public transport has the RUCs taken into account in their ticket pricing and therefore being paid by these folk. Road and related costs are not solely funded by RUCs, they are also funded by general taxation and local body rates so cyclists are funding road infrastructure as are mobility scooter, wheelchair users and pedestrians.

They may well often be the same people, but they are not always, and those other forms of transport are taxed/regulated separately on top of general taxation or local body rates. If I travel by private vehicle or public transport, I pay taxes, rate, and then extra on top. Cyclists don't pay anything extra, yet get special cycle lanes and cycle ways. It's patently unjust.

evilengineer

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#2285734 30-Jul-2019 13:45

All this "user pays" talk is very interesting.

Is there any evidence that Rego+fuel taxes covers the total cost of building and maintaining the road network (NZTA & Council funded)?

Not to mention the costs incurred by the Fire Service and St. John's in cleaning up after the accidents.

Or the "hidden" pollution and carbon dioxide emissions costs?

We don't want car drivers and truckers to be taking the proverbial in the same way as those free loading cyclists!

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