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  #2712065 24-May-2021 10:27
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Scott3:
You have absolutely hit the crux of the issue with your first sentence. It is not possible to get rid of the TEL, and maintain the same properties at a price point that is competitive with 100LL.
[snip]
Personally I think a fairly high octane, ethanol free MOGAS is the likely outcome. (Either 98Ron, or 100Ron like NPD sells in the sough island).
Some modern planes with rotax brand or similar engines will already be approved for this.
Some engines will require approval
Some will require modification (hardened valves, compression reducing pistons etc), then approval, and will take a hit on peak power.
Some engines will not be viable to modify (or will result in a power loss such that the aircraft no longer preforms as desired), these will need to be re-powered or retired. It is possible that high performance General aviation will become the domain of turbine powered aircraft rather than piston.

 

When 100LL becomes unavailable - which IMHO will be a short time after the USA Environmental Protection Agency 'screws its courage to the sticking place' and bans al leaded petrol - it will mean the end of the road runway for a large percentage of the GA fleet.
Every replacement non-leaded-fuel engine will require an STC (Supplementary Type Certificate) to be certified for every different sub-type of airframe to which it might be applied, and that's a process that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, and might apply to a fleet of dozens to a few hundreds of individual aircraft. The US FAA has been running a programme to produce an unleaded 100LL replacement fuel for over a decade, and it has produced a few candidates none of which has so far been successful.

 

Since the GA fleet is almost exclusively elderly, either in years of use or a relatively recent plane mechanically identical to its 1960s predecessor, a large proportion will just have to stop flying. What percentage of those would be replaced by modern-design aircraft is the big question




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  #2712067 24-May-2021 10:33
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I recall this old article discussing the effects of either or. Take it as you wish, it was on Stuff, by AA. There are a lot of newer (than the article) cars that are suggesting higher octanes in their handbooks etc.

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/editors-picks/7815093/Lower-octane-fuels-give-better-value-AA


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  #2712698 24-May-2021 22:52
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Scott3:

 

.....It is not possible to get rid of the TEL, and maintain the same properties at a price point that is competitive with 100LL.....

 

....But the exact same 100LL properties aren't actually required for general aviation. As an example the entire range of the popular aircraft engine supplier rotax are approved to run E10, MOGAS and avgas...

 

.......It is possible that high performance General aviation will become the domain of turbine powered aircraft rather than piston.......

 

 

Nothing in the information I have read has mentioned the price point as being the problem and I have read a few articles on this issue. It's being able to meet the required standard that is the problem. For example the ethanol blended fuels meet the octane and other requirements but the ethanol blended fuel damages the seals in the fuel system so they cannot be approved.

 

I'd like to know how you can be so sure that 100LL properties aren't actually required for general aviation. I beg to differ. There are properties of 100LL required for general aviation. General aviation isn't just Light Sport Aircraft (LSA) powered by Rotax engines. GA is also pressurised piston Singles and Twins operating at altitudes where vaporisation is a problem. Usually these aircraft are also turbo charged which also usually requires higher octane fuel. These aircraft are running engines of less than 350 hp.

 

It's not just a matter of the engines being able to run mogas it's a matter of the fuel being fit for purpose in the environment it is being used. Many GA aircraft running Lycomings and Continentals have been run very successfully on mogas here in New Zealand, just not at high altitude nor turbocharged engines. In fact if I recall correctly they were limited to a lower operating ceiling while burning mogas.

 

Turbine engines will never take over all GA high performance operations.

 

     

  1. A turbine isn't all that efficient compared to a piston engine below about 400 to 500 hp.
  2. At low altitudes they burn way too much fuel.
  3. Their operating costs are too high for some applications.




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  #2712737 25-May-2021 08:46
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For anyone who may have missed it, @Scott3 has started a discussion on leaded AVGAS here: https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=179&topicid=285917




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  #2714108 27-May-2021 21:04
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Waitomo seems to have fizzled out in Wellington, and are not really any better than the rest

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  #2714110 27-May-2021 21:09
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yup waitomo has joined the big boys in price now


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  #2714123 27-May-2021 21:24
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Batman:

 

yup waitomo has joined the big boys in price now

 

 

I lost my good source in the industry so don't hear all the gossip now... It would be interesting to know if this is a direct result of terminal gate pricing, which was what the govt introduced to (somehow) bring petrol prices down - everybody now pays the same price for wholesale access to fuel so quite a few in the industry expected it to increase pricing for some operators.

 

I'm only aware of Gull actually publishing their pricing online despite the wholesale price now being something that is public information that every supplier has to provice.

 

https://gull.nz/fuel/tgp/

 

Anybody have a 30,000 litre tanker?

 

 


 
 
 

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  #2714224 27-May-2021 23:22
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sbiddle:

 

I lost my good source in the industry so don't hear all the gossip now... It would be interesting to know if this is a direct result of terminal gate pricing, which was what the govt introduced to (somehow) bring petrol prices down - everybody now pays the same price for wholesale access to fuel so quite a few in the industry expected it to increase pricing for some operators.

 

I'm only aware of Gull actually publishing their pricing online despite the wholesale price now being something that is public information that every supplier has to provice.

 

https://gull.nz/fuel/tgp/

 

Anybody have a 30,000 litre tanker?

 



 

Interesting that the preimum of 95Ron over 91Ron is only 3.66% at wholesale level.

 

 

 

"Anybody have a 30,000 litre tanker?"

 

91 is 191.7c/l at the hewletts road gull speedlane according to gaspy.

 

Most recent terminal gate pricing was 171.33c/L+GST which works out as 197.0c/L incl gst.

 

So unless you actually need tanker load's of fuel, you might be better to just fill at the retail site.


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  #2714256 28-May-2021 07:29
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Scott3:

 

sbiddle:

 

I lost my good source in the industry so don't hear all the gossip now... It would be interesting to know if this is a direct result of terminal gate pricing, which was what the govt introduced to (somehow) bring petrol prices down - everybody now pays the same price for wholesale access to fuel so quite a few in the industry expected it to increase pricing for some operators.

 

I'm only aware of Gull actually publishing their pricing online despite the wholesale price now being something that is public information that every supplier has to provice.

 

https://gull.nz/fuel/tgp/

 

Anybody have a 30,000 litre tanker?

 



 

Interesting that the preimum of 95Ron over 91Ron is only 3.66% at wholesale level.

 

 

 

"Anybody have a 30,000 litre tanker?"

 

91 is 191.7c/l at the hewletts road gull speedlane according to gaspy.

 

Most recent terminal gate pricing was 171.33c/L+GST which works out as 197.0c/L incl gst.

 

So unless you actually need tanker load's of fuel, you might be better to just fill at the retail site.

 

 

Or you could drive the tanker to Wellington and make some $$ as 91 is currently around 223.9 in the Wellington CBD (vs 193.7 yesterday in Lower Hutt at Pak 'n Save and New World then less their 6c voucher discount, but their price will go back up 10c today as it's just their wekly discount day)

 

The whole situation really shows how poor the Commerce Commission investigation was, and how it brushed over two biggest issues which were discount schemes and price cross subsidies. It's a reminder once again that the Commerce Commission often don't actually care about consumers in the long run - their focus is on delivering (what they believe) is a fair marketplace, which is something that doesn't necessarily deliver the best deals for the consumers.

 

The massive price difference between 91 and 95 that we're seeing in many places now is just crazy and is to actually try and make a profit since the market is so competitive.

 

 

 

 


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  #2714300 28-May-2021 09:03
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Scott3:

 

sbiddle:

 

https://gull.nz/fuel/tgp/

 


Interesting that the preimum of 95Ron over 91Ron is only 3.66% at wholesale level.

 

 

Also interesting that Gull isn't publishing a TGP for 98. Presumably they blend 95 & ethanol after the terminal gate to make 98?

 

Also this "Does not apply to customers (including franchisees) with a current term supply contract with Gull that is not a TGP based supply contract ". So some customers will be paying less than the TGP for fuel. So potentially the whole TGP thing is just window dressing.

 

 


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  #2720599 8-Jun-2021 10:17
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I contacted the dealer 3 times, but never heard back, so I contacted Kia and they replied. Part of the email says

 

Your vehicle is designed to operate using a minimum of 91 octane gasoline (Unleaded). However, Kia NZ recommends the use of the highest octane fuel available for the potential economic and performance benefits when used long term. For more information regards fuel requirements please see the user guide.





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  #2720646 8-Jun-2021 11:21
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alisam:

I contacted the dealer 3 times, but never heard back, so I contacted Kia and they replied. Part of the email says


Your vehicle is designed to operate using a minimum of 91 octane gasoline (Unleaded). However, Kia NZ recommends the use of the highest octane fuel available for the potential economic and performance benefits when used long term. For more information regards fuel requirements please see the user guide.


I now have the car, and the manual says to use 91. Strange that there is conflicting advice. Might try both and see if there is any discernible difference. Funnily enough the dealer said nothing about fuel grade when I picked it up

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  #2720649 8-Jun-2021 11:26
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Check the fuel flap

 

My NZ New Hyundai (Czech state manufacturing plant, similar shop as Kia) had an official looking RON usage sticker in it. 


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  #2720881 8-Jun-2021 19:45
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Oblivian:

 

Check the fuel flap

 

My NZ New Hyundai (Czech state manufacturing plant, similar shop as Kia) had an official looking RON usage sticker in it. 

 

 

Just checked it.  It says RON 91+.  Also has E5 and E10 (that's the allowed ethanol content I think)

 

So it's still a mystery why the manual, the fuel flap and Kia Aus say 91 is OK, whereas Kia NZ are saying use 95 or above

 

It's also strange that most cars in UK have a 10,000 mile service interval, and here, 10,000 or 12,000 km is common


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  #2720913 8-Jun-2021 21:21
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shk292:

 

Oblivian:

 

Check the fuel flap

 

My NZ New Hyundai (Czech state manufacturing plant, similar shop as Kia) had an official looking RON usage sticker in it. 

 

 

Just checked it.  It says RON 91+.  Also has E5 and E10 (that's the allowed ethanol content I think)

 

So it's still a mystery why the manual, the fuel flap and Kia Aus say 91 is OK, whereas Kia NZ are saying use 95 or above

 

It's also strange that most cars in UK have a 10,000 mile service interval, and here, 10,000 or 12,000 km is common

 

 

So far as the service intervals go, they can be driven by how often the dealers would like to have contact with their customers. I have been told that the manufacturers are quite happy with a high km between services but the dealers don't like that because they tend to lose contact with their customers so a lower figure is settled upon, which no doubt varies by country.





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