EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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#3266173 30-Jul-2024 07:23

gzt: RAV4 hybrid is a very successful model. Toyota keep resale value for good reasons. You're not exactly comparing apples to apples.

That’s exactly the point. Why would you buy an apple when you can get an orange for the same price?

The question being, is an orange better and why?

Ge0rge

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#3266174 30-Jul-2024 07:28

Perhaps it is use case? Plenty of places I'd happily take a RAV4 that I wouldn't dare take a Tesla.

johno1234

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#3266184 30-Jul-2024 08:30

Ge0rge: Perhaps it is use case? Plenty of places I'd happily take a RAV4 that I wouldn't dare take a Tesla.

I agree that for a one car family, a BEV would be inconvenient at times. I would personally only consider one as as part of a 2 car family.

We currently have two ICE SUVs but the next car will almost certainly be a BEV as: they are now not more expensive, the tech is superior and I can't resist tech, the convenience of never having to go to a gas station and the low energy cost, the minimal servicing requirement, the the lack of noise and fumes, the peppy performance.

Not picking on Toyota who make good cars and have the lowest depreciation. But the whole concept of hybrids leaves me cold. Not only is there a complex ICE engine and transmission to maintain- there's a battery and electric system as well. And the battery requires energy from 100% fossil fuel to charge!

alasta

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#3266186 30-Jul-2024 08:47

jarledb:

alasta:

Some people like tech and some don't. I am in the latter camp, so would opt for the Toyota which I would consider to be more familiar and conventional.

Any new car is going to have a lot of tech in it. Including Toyota. So if you don't want tech you will have to stay with older cars. It is not as much a BEV vs ICE as a modern car vs old car thing.

I bought a Mazda CX-30 Limited last year and have no problems with using all the features, but I wouldn't be able to cope if I had to do things like software updates, or navigate complicated things on the touchscreen, or troubleshoot weird random bugs.

People who tinker with computers have totally different tastes and preferences from mainstream consumers, and it's good that the car market has a wide range of options to cover everyone's needs.

jonathan18

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#3266190 30-Jul-2024 08:56

johno1234: I agree that for a one car family, a BEV would be inconvenient at times. I would personally only consider one as as part of a 2 car family.

As a family with two BEVs and no ICE ‘back-up’ I’m struggling to find a situation since going ICE-free two years ago where we have been meaningfully* inconvenienced by our choice. And this includes long family trips around the country. I’ve never once needed to borrow an ICE to do anything that our BEVs weren’t capable of doing.

Yep, there are those for who this isn’t the case - whether it be a genuine need to tow decent distances, or for those that feel it’s critical to be able to drive from Auckland to Wellington without stopping - but I believe this ‘inconvenience’ factor is highly exaggerated and doesn’t impact nearly as many people as impressions would give.

* For some I would suggest ‘inconvenience’ is defined incredibly broadly, ie as ‘needing to adapt and adopt slightly different habits from current behaviour’. (This isn’t a dig at you personally, but rather at it being so commonly used as a bit of a cop-out in terms of making change.)

johno1234

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#3266195 30-Jul-2024 09:07

jonathan18:

johno1234: I agree that for a one car family, a BEV would be inconvenient at times. I would personally only consider one as as part of a 2 car family.

As a family with two BEVs and no ICE ‘back-up’ I’m struggling to find a situation since going ICE-free two years ago where we have been meaningfully* inconvenienced by our choice. And this includes long family trips around the country. I’ve never once needed to borrow an ICE to do anything that our BEVs weren’t capable of doing.

Yep, there are those for who this isn’t the case - whether it be a genuine need to tow decent distances, or for those that feel it’s critical to be able to drive from Auckland to Wellington without stopping - but I believe this ‘inconvenience’ factor is highly exaggerated and doesn’t impact nearly as many people as impressions would give.

* For some I would suggest ‘inconvenience’ is defined incredibly broadly, ie as ‘needing to adapt and adopt slightly different habits from current behaviour’. (This isn’t a dig at you personally, but rather at it being so commonly used as a bit of a cop-out in terms of making change.)

I admit that I would find it inconvenient to need to plan trips whereas with my 1000km range SUV I just go and if I need to fill up I just do it on the way as there are gas stations everywhere and it only takes 5min. Our most common out of town trip would be Auckland to Whangamata and back which is now just about doable on a full BEV charge with the later model BEVs - I can live with that.

I do tow heavy stuff from time to time, occasionally over distance.

MikeFly

148 posts

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#3266202 30-Jul-2024 09:41

alasta:

I bought a Mazda CX-30 Limited last year and have no problems with using all the features, but I wouldn't be able to cope if I had to do things like software updates, or navigate complicated things on the touchscreen, or troubleshoot weird random bugs.

People who tinker with computers have totally different tastes and preferences from mainstream consumers, and it's good that the car market has a wide range of options to cover everyone's needs.

I had the same problem with the Tesla M3, so just rooted it, and downloaded the ICE Car image file, and now it thinks its a Triumph Herald.

*You need to need to add the leaking oil kit yourself as the software doesn't handle that.

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Scott3

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#3266258 30-Jul-2024 10:23

johno1234:

The pendulum swing away from BEV has gone so far that they are becoming cheaper than hybrids. I find that hard to explain.

A 2022 Tesla MY typical price 2nd hand now around $47-$50k

a 2022 Toyota RAV4 up-spec hybrid > $50k ?

Yet the Toyota has more to go wrong with it, and is very low tech by comparison. Do people not like high tech? Wary of charging and range?

There are lots of reasons:

Economy has changed a lot in the last two years. Demographics buying new (and ~$50k used) cars have likely changed too. Companies and rental car fleets make up a larger percentage today. And of private buyers, I would expect the demographic to have swung older (Given current interest rates, few people with mortgages will be buying ~$50k cars at the moment.
Globally for basically the first time ever, EV's are oversupplied.
Globally we have gone through a few years in the pandemic where EV's didn't depreciate due to shortage etc. This is now over, and we have a return to normal depreciation. EV tech is moving faster than other new vehicle tech, so faster depreciation of EV's is to be expected.
Such aggressive change in government policy in NZ had lead to the market becoming flooded with steeply discounted new and ex demo EV's, further adding to depreciation of used EV's.
Combination of the above means that FOMO is gone and fear of overpaying is in.
With EV's we haven't broken through the Chasm in the technology adoption curve yet. For a decent chunk of the buying market, EV's simply aren't on their radar. May be a suppose for those on here who, along with their peers likely sit to the left of the curve.
Hybrids are relatively more mature, so the depreciation curve is not as steep. Whenever Toyota facelifts the Rav4, it is not likely to materially change the vehicle beyond aesthetics, where tesla could easily drop make the base battery size 20% bigger, which would make the subsequent model Y's a lot more valuable than the older ones.
Cognitive Bias: The Compromise Effect. When presented with options buyers are statically most likely to pick the middle one, When I did sales training, I was taught to pick out three options based on the customers, but to make sure the middle priced one was a good pick (both for the seller and for the customer), as that is likely where they will land. For cars, the options are largely: Pure combustion, Hybrid, or Plug in. Not a surprise that a lot of people pick the middle option. In this light, the meer existence of EV's makes hybrids more popular as the moderate option.
It's not a like for like comparison, the base 2wd model y is being compared with high spec rav4 hybrids (which are all AWD only). For the buyer who wants AWD, the rav4 is the cheaper option.
While the Rav4 hybrid has got more to go wrong with it, Toyota's hybrid systems are proven to be highly reliable, and have a really solid parts network. Old stories of poor tesla quality, and long wait times on parts continue to linger.

I should also note, there seems to have been a massive surge of anti EV content on social media. Depreciation seems to be the biggest target at the moment.

HarmLessSolutions

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#3266271 30-Jul-2024 10:50

Scott3:

[snip]

I should also note, there seems to have been a massive surge of anti EV content on social media. Depreciation seems to be the biggest target at the moment.

Worth noting that the anti EV comments on social media have migrated from 'EVs are too expensive so only affordable to the rich' to 'depreciation is pillaging the value of EVs'. Bit of wanting your cake and eating it too it would seem.

A great post that covers off most of the bases insofar as the EV market is concerned but no mention of the manipulation of demand by changes to taxation. We've seen what the removal of the CCD and introduction of RUCs has done in regard to EV sales levels but still to come is the rollout of RUCs across the remainder of the national fleet (i.e. petrol vehicles including hybrids). As EV prices continue to reduce due to the factors you've outlined, plus falling battery prices, what acceleration of changes in buying trends can be expected from a per km charge of RUCs, likely accompanied by a rise in carbon taxation on fossil fuels in order for TPTB to at least signal their intent to comply with international emissions reduction directives?

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everettpsycho

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#3267817 3-Aug-2024 10:55

I considered posting about mg slashing the price of the zs over the Tasman, but low and behold less than 24 hours later they knocked $10k off the entry level price here bringing it down to $41k which is about what it was available for when we had the rebates.

gzt

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#3267846 3-Aug-2024 14:42

What is the range on that base model?

HarmLessSolutions

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#3267847 3-Aug-2024 14:47

gzt: What is the range on that base model?

Ask Gavin...

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Mehrts

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#3267951 4-Aug-2024 10:48

gzt: What is the range on that base model?

To actually answer your question, 320km stated range (WLTP).

As always, real world usage may differ depending on a bunch of variables.

deepred

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#3268086 4-Aug-2024 16:15

johno1234:

Ge0rge: Perhaps it is use case? Plenty of places I'd happily take a RAV4 that I wouldn't dare take a Tesla.

I agree that for a one car family, a BEV would be inconvenient at times. I would personally only consider one as as part of a 2 car family.

We currently have two ICE SUVs but the next car will almost certainly be a BEV as: they are now not more expensive, the tech is superior and I can't resist tech, the convenience of never having to go to a gas station and the low energy cost, the minimal servicing requirement, the the lack of noise and fumes, the peppy performance.

Not picking on Toyota who make good cars and have the lowest depreciation. But the whole concept of hybrids leaves me cold. Not only is there a complex ICE engine and transmission to maintain- there's a battery and electric system as well. And the battery requires energy from 100% fossil fuel to charge!

Hybrids have their place as a stepping stone from petrol/diesel to full EV, for as long as it takes for EVs to be cheap enough in the used market. Works for me.

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gzt

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#3268199 4-Aug-2024 21:18

johno1234: But the whole concept of hybrids leaves me cold. Not only is there a complex ICE engine and transmission to maintain- there's a battery and electric system as well. And the battery requires energy from 100% fossil fuel to charge!

Your point is logical. In practice ime the real picture is much better than that.

The ICE components and most of the traditional components tend to last longer because they are under less stress. To give just two examples - electric power tends to be used for standing start. Braking components wear less because regeneration braking is used for charging. Electric generally seems to far less demanding on bearings and all those random minor components too. That brings me to the last point. Most recharge energy into the battery is gained from regenerative braking and not from motor charging.

My experience is owning a couple of Toyota Prius models for 8 years or so. Other brands your mileage may vary. Anyway.. back to EVs completely agree with BEV prices dropping and good secondhand market availability it's a great time to go BEV.

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