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RUKI

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#104074 14-Jun-2012 11:52
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I am planning to upgrade our car fleet at home with hopes to secure new contract in IT/IS space good enough to buy couple of 2007 Toyotas :-)

While siting at home - contract hunting - I've put a lot of time in research about new Toyota models - both mechanics and electronics as I am electronic engineer.

New cars are becoming more and more computerized with multiple computers controlling Engine, Transmission, ABS,TRC, VSC, Climate Control system with Aircon, Airbags (SRS), even tyre pressure and brake pads thickness in some models.
And cars have On Board Diagnostic System (after 1996/1998 -> OBD-II). 
I was familiar with OBD-I for Toyota and aware of 101 trouble codes for Engine, ABS, Transmission and SRS) but OBD-II is more complex.
OBD-It saved me a lot when I was buying my current car at the auction as one of 3 I wanted were faulty.

Mechanical checks which are offered at car auctions and car markets do not offer computer scanning and not good enough for me. One mechanic even told me "if Engine Light is not on - I would not be bothered" - pathetic ignorance and customer misleading - he charges $140! I hope he is good at what he is checking mechanically.

Service stations charge from 60 to 120 and more just for reading OBD-II trouble codes but they would not let expensive scanner outside the workshop (i.e. when buying at auction).

I made a thorough research in regards to OBD-II and found out:

- generic cheap OBD-II scanners one can find online are complete waste of money as those are normally for US market. Different car manufacturer's protocols are different. Proprietary scanners are for particular makes - e.g. what is good for Jag will not work with Toyota. Different scanners should be used for Honda, Holden, Mitsubishi etc. Cars made for different markets (Europe, Japan, USA) may require  different scanners.
- cars made for Japan Domestic Market will NOT put the engine light on if for example oxygen sensor is dead (in my case - found it with diagnostic knowledge I've obtained and changed the sensor myself - less fuel consumption now)
- the Check Engine Light was not "on" when ABS brakes system was down on my friend's car - brakes just worked as if ABS were not there. ABS light was not on for some reason as well but trouble code suggested faulty ABS sensor. 
- with a proper scan tool on some makes/models you can read the real odometer (some buggers reprogram odometer chip so the car looks fresher but engine computer actually may keep the real mileage or the record about last time the trouble codes were erased - maximum 65535 km). My friends from BMW forum in Moscow reported a lot of cases they found the case. 
- you can be you own mechanic and run tests for different systems in your car to save on diagnostics fees
- as a result I've purchased with trial and error few scan tools and now I can read Toyota/Nissan multiple parameters (hundreds) on a dealership level, read proprietary codes - intermittent, historic and active, run tests, erase codes etc.
Happy and feel safe when I will go to buy that new dream car. It may also read some info from Mitsubishi, Honda, Hyundai - but I did not tried yet.

Practiced on my friend's and neighbors Toyota cars.
 
My neighbor who was very pleased with the results that his $19K Toyota is free from faults said I should stop looking for IT/IS job (for the last 5 years I was in change, release and compliance in NZ) and start my own business. 

- What anyone think about doing "electronic health check" of their own car or when you go to buy the new second hand one (as a supplementary to mechanic checks)? 
- Or it is easier not to think about it and deal with the problem when it happens - visiting service station when it brakes and let them fix it?
- What would be fare price for it?




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Talkiet
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  #640634 14-Jun-2012 12:16
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In my experience, anything modern enough to throw codes will in fact throw a Check Engine Light if there's something that needs attention.

My Legacy for example did show (CEL) a fault for AFM a few years ago and I was able to read it using the dashboard flashes, get a spare locally and replace myself in an hour or so (thank goodness for a DSE set of security bits in the car!)

My ex-GFs Peugeot threw a light for ABS as well. I would think any car that was able to have a brake fault detected electronically and NOT throw a light immediately would be subject to a recall.

It's a good idea, but don't over-play the number of faults you're likely to find that aren't already obvious.

I think there's far more likely to be wrong with a car in the steering rack, suspension and brakes or exhaust at a mechanical level so anyone concerned enough to get an electronic health check would also get a mechanical check. Most decent mechanics I know also throw a reader onto the cars and check the codes too... I found a couple of mechanics locally (both of whom I had paid for work previously) who were happy to offer free pre-purchase inspections.

Fair price? Hard to say - given it's going to be in addition to a mechanical check (which may include an essentially free electronic check as well)....

Cheers - N




Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.




Jaxson
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  #640636 14-Jun-2012 12:19
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Just an opinion, but if I was to purchase this sort of service, I'd want to know the provider had some sort of links/support from Toyota. As in access to relevant car databases etc to be adequately informed to make calls based on the info they were reading from the car. It's one thing to be able to read the fault codes, but I'd like to know with some confidence that the tech then had the backup to really recommend what needed to be done to rectify the issue, or determine how significant the issue really was etc.

vinnieg
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  #640643 14-Jun-2012 12:30
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Sorry mate, but I agree with the others

While you may have mechanical ability(probably like a lot of us in IT, since we love tinkering)

I'd take my car to a qualified mechanic/dealer, with the professional ODBC/II, or Consult tools direct from Nissan, or Toyota etc

It's just too easy for any unqualified mechanic/sparky to pick up a ODBC tool off AliExpress, and misdiagnose a fault. Which could in turn leave you liable for damage to that car




I have moved across the ditch.  Now residing in Melbourne as a VOIP/Video Technical Trainer/Engineer. 



RUKI

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  #640894 14-Jun-2012 18:19
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Jaxson: Just an opinion, but if I was to purchase this sort of service, I'd want to know the provider had some sort of links/support from Toyota. As in access to relevant car databases etc to be adequately informed to make calls based on the info they were reading from the car. It's one thing to be able to read the fault codes, but I'd like to know with some confidence that the tech then had the backup to really recommend what needed to be done to rectify the issue, or determine how significant the issue really was etc.


That kind of information is available on subscription basis. One can purchase database(s) which guide through finding the fault based on the scanner reports. My understanding is that price is less than going and see the service station. You can buy two-days subscription to TOYOTA Information System (TIS) and see what particular upgrades if any were issued for your car. Upgrade then is no different to re-imaging your PC/Mobile. One real life example - the guy in Moscow imported his car from States and found some problems in driveability. Local dealership refused to service it because it was manufactured for the different market (non European). He purchased two day subscription to TIS, found known bug and new release for the ECU, downloaded it and upgraded the car - happy now.

For that matter and also because chip tuning is popular I am continuing research in that area. It is fun. 




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RUKI

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  #640933 14-Jun-2012 18:54
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....
While you may have mechanical ability(probably like a lot of us in IT, since we love tinkering)
... 
It's just too easy for any unqualified mechanic/sparky to pick up a ODBC tool ....and misdiagnose a fault. Which could in turn leave you liable for damage to that car


That is a valid point. And I thought about it.
For that reason I am actually undergoing Pro-Tech/Master Diagnost qualification from Toyota.
Found it easier than when I was building my Linux server!

While reading through hundreds of related posts from overseas (it is more popular abroad) found absolutely no evidence of someone have damaged their car with a scanner. 

It is only when someone does so called "chip tuning" modifying factory setting and loose the original dump from ECU - that is not funny.
But in IT world having back out plan and be able to reinstate to original condition is a must (I am as a change manager know that).






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gzt

gzt
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  #641083 15-Jun-2012 03:08
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A quick drive through with a detailed report would be useful. I realise there are a whole lot of limitations but it would still provide value at $30 - 50 or so depending on options. In the right locations and combined with a refferal to a good mechanic I'd guess that is a viable business model.

No doubt an integrated system is something that could be marketed supported and franchised as well.




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stevenz
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  #641291 15-Jun-2012 12:36
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Just watch for BMW's marvellous "there is a fault _somewhere_" system, that is vague enough to require large expense to diagnose what the detected fault actually is.




 
 
 

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RUKI

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  #641539 15-Jun-2012 17:59
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stevenz: Just watch for BMW's marvellous "there is a fault _somewhere_" system, that is vague enough to require large expense to diagnose what the detected fault actually is.


Re: BMW -  I've got enough info about where to get right tools, right info etc for BMW as they are the number one car for certain people in Moscow and rest of the CIS and probably there are more beamers in Moscow than total number of cars in Auckland.

However beamers have only little interest for me at this stage as I am not planning to buy one and they are not massive here in New Zealand...Only BMW owners I know here are few Real Estate people...

Buying a scanner for beamer is not a problem though. One genuine interest from BMW owner and I will buy and try that tool.
  




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RUKI

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  #641542 15-Jun-2012 18:07
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gzt: A quick drive through with a detailed report would be useful. I realise there are a whole lot of limitations but it would still provide value at $30 - 50 or so depending on options. In the right locations and combined with a refferal to a good mechanic I'd guess that is a viable business model...

Thanks fro that.
I am strategically located already - few hundred meters from dozens of car dealers in Greenlane, few steps from Ellerslie Car Fare and few minutes drive from Turners Auction.

So I was thinking also about accompanying potential buyers to one of those places.  

 




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RUKI

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  #646144 25-Jun-2012 23:51
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Found few who were willing to pay from 25 to 50 for computer diagnostic.
One had intermittent trouble and others planning to buy the car.
Went for a pre-purchase inspection together with mechanic and the friend of the friend to the dealer. Checked the car's ECUs (Powertrain, ABS, etc) while mechanic was driving around including going 100 on the motorway. All good to see the 9 year old car was doing well. Asking price was $11000.




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