White line fading and rain conditions visibility

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gzt

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#207412 23-Dec-2016 08:15

In Auckland there are many intersections which are difficult for users to navigate in rain conditions at night because of whiteline fading. The intersection of Symonds St / Mt Eden Rd / New North Rd comes to mind.

Approaching the intersection from Symonds St in night rain conditions with medium traffic a new user will use a loosely follow and hope mode. As an occasional user it's bad enough.

Does NZ/Auckland need new standards for white line paint performance or is this a simple case of no maintenance?

(Inspired by the Pink cycleway no longer pink topic : )

Linuxluver

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#1694154 23-Dec-2016 08:54

They need reflective cats eyes on the lines. Absolutely.

Sometimes the old lines are easier to see than the current lines...and that can get messy.

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nzkiwiman

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#1694232 23-Dec-2016 10:59

So many lines on SH1 running though Dunedin have been moved slightly to the left or right; the old line has been painted over with black but in the rain are easier to see than the new lines.

And during the day you can see many old lines coming through the black

More $$ needs to be spent on maintenance, with more frequent repainting along with a better way of removing old lines

Linuxluver

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#1694301 23-Dec-2016 12:10

nzkiwiman:

So many lines on SH1 running though Dunedin have been moved slightly to the left or right; the old line has been painted over with black but in the rain are easier to see than the new lines.

And during the day you can see many old lines coming through the black

More $$ needs to be spent on maintenance, with more frequent repainting along with a better way of removing old lines

It's the same everywhere. The not-so-hidden cost of tax cuts and privatising public works. No one is responsible.

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Batman

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#1694354 23-Dec-2016 14:50

When it rains old lines and current lines look the same

Geektastic

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#1694493 23-Dec-2016 23:45

gzt: In Auckland there are many intersections which are difficult for users to navigate in rain conditions at night because of whiteline fading. The intersection of Symonds St / Mt Eden Rd / New North Rd comes to mind.

Approaching the intersection from Symonds St in night rain conditions with medium traffic a new user will use a loosely follow and hope mode. As an occasional user it's bad enough.

Does NZ/Auckland need new standards for white line paint performance or is this a simple case of no maintenance?

(Inspired by the Pink cycleway no longer pink topic : )

I've commented on this - a lot and often.

The white paint is rubbish - absolute rubbish. It should have glass beads or thermoplastic beads in to reflect headlights. Out in the rural parts of NZ, the lines simply vanish in poor weather (and are pretty useless in clement weather) and it is not making the contribution to road safety that it should.

I can only assume it is parsimony and/or cost cutting somewhere.

You can see one illustration in this video showing the difference.

Geektastic

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#1694494 23-Dec-2016 23:54

Here's another video showing the difference very clearly.

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MikeB4

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#1694510 24-Dec-2016 07:12

There is only so much that can be done. There is not a bottomless pit of money. There comes a point where user responsibility comes into play, if it's wet and the markings are harder to see etc slow down and drive to the conditions.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Bung

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#1694521 24-Dec-2016 08:05

The NZTA MOTSAM manual seems to specify reflectorised paint for most of the markings. There may only be so much money but somebody should be checking what gets squirted on the road before paying the invoice. I've seen some markings that look like they were done at high speed.

Geektastic

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#1694551 24-Dec-2016 11:23

MikeB4: There is only so much that can be done. There is not a bottomless pit of money. There comes a point where user responsibility comes into play, if it's wet and the markings are harder to see etc slow down and drive to the conditions.

We could cease wasting money on any number of things in order to fund this, as it is something which directly benefits most people in the country (as well as tourists - one of our largest income earners) rather than many things we spend money on that benefit only some.

gzt

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#1694555 24-Dec-2016 11:37

Bung: The NZTA MOTSAM manual seems to specify reflectorised paint for most of the markings. There may only be so much money but somebody should be checking what gets squirted on the road before paying the invoice. I've seen some markings that look like they were done at high speed.

Is that this set of documents?

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadmarking-paints/

gzt

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#1694556 24-Dec-2016 11:48

Geektastic:
MikeB4: There is only so much that can be done. There is not a bottomless pit of money. There comes a point where user responsibility comes into play, if it's wet and the markings are harder to see etc slow down and drive to the conditions.

We could cease wasting money on any number of things in order to fund this, as it is something which directly benefits most people in the country (as well as tourists - one of our largest income earners) rather than many things we spend money on that benefit only some.

I don't think that will get us very far. My feeling is the problem is at least partly technical. Bung's earlier comments for instance. Then you have factors like wet road reflectivity. That is materials based + environmental interaction + lighting, etc. Edit: forgot paint standards and performance assessment.

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Geektastic

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#1694568 24-Dec-2016 13:00

gzt:
Geektastic:

MikeB4: There is only so much that can be done. There is not a bottomless pit of money. There comes a point where user responsibility comes into play, if it's wet and the markings are harder to see etc slow down and drive to the conditions.

We could cease wasting money on any number of things in order to fund this, as it is something which directly benefits most people in the country (as well as tourists - one of our largest income earners) rather than many things we spend money on that benefit only some.

I don't think that will get us very far. My feeling is the problem is at least partly technical. Bung's earlier comments for instance. Then you have factors like wet road reflectivity. That is materials based + environmental interaction + lighting, etc. Edit: forgot paint standards and performance assessment.

It's not technical. The materials exist to do the job properly and are used elsewhere in the world.

It's one or more of

Laziness

Incompetence

Penny pinching

Institutional parochialism

Bung

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#1694571 24-Dec-2016 13:17

gzt:
Bung: The NZTA MOTSAM manual seems to specify reflectorised paint for most of the markings. There may only be so much money but somebody should be checking what gets squirted on the road before paying the invoice. I've seen some markings that look like they were done at high speed.

Is that this set of documents?

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadmarking-paints/

That might be the approved paints. If you search for the MOTSAM manuals you should find some pdfs that cover signs and markers by the roadside and markings on the road itself.

Geektastic

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#1696013 28-Dec-2016 23:24

Bung:
gzt:
Bung: The NZTA MOTSAM manual seems to specify reflectorised paint for most of the markings. There may only be so much money but somebody should be checking what gets squirted on the road before paying the invoice. I've seen some markings that look like they were done at high speed.

Is that this set of documents?

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/roadmarking-paints/

That might be the approved paints. If you search for the MOTSAM manuals you should find some pdfs that cover signs and markers by the roadside and markings on the road itself.

Nice to see the docs are kept up to date:

"(note: these retroreflectivity values are likely to be increased in 2007)."

gzt

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#1696016 28-Dec-2016 23:49

Did anyone notice a reflectivity increase in 2007? No?

The docs may be up to date after all ; ).