right to repair, John Deere tractors, Tesla cars, ...

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › right to repair, John Deere tractors, Tesla cars, ...

kingdragonfly

1268 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 627

Topic # 239751 2-Aug-2018 13:40

The "right to repair" is becoming an issue with several vehicle manufacturers, such as Tesla and John Deere

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_to_Repair_Act

Perhaps we should enact legislation here, to get ahead of the game

"The Motor Vehicle Owners' Right to Repair Act, sometimes also referred to as Right to Repair ... would require automobile manufacturers to provide the same information to independent repair shops as they do for dealer shops."

This was brought to my attention by @wellygary, when a Kiwi stuggled to get an insurance-write off Tesla car activated.

11 minute video

Tractor Hacking: The Farmers Breaking Big Tech's Repair Monopoly

"When it comes to repair, farmers have always been self reliant. But the modernization of tractors and other farm equipment over the past few decades has left most farmers in the dust thanks to diagnostic software that large manufacturers hold a monopoly over.

In this episode of State of Repair, Motherboard goes to Nebraska to talk to the farmers and mechanics who are fighting large manufacturers like John Deere for the right to access the diagnostic software they need to repair their tractors."

1 | 2

14215 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1828

Reply # 2066845 2-Aug-2018 14:03

2 people support this post

Doesn't the CGA partly do this already? eg spare parts to enable repair etc must be available for a reasonable period of time. But I guess that doesn't cover business purchases. To reduce waste, companies should be making things last for far longer, and more easy to upgrade and repair, and IMO they should be required to take the good back at the end of the life for recycling.That would make them more liekly to produce goods that last longer,. It is ironic how NZ business are all for getting rid of plastic bags for the consumer to take their products home in. But businesses are selling more and more goods that don't last as long, are less reliable, cheaper to buy, and end up as rubbish after a few years.

plod

251 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 67

Reply # 2066864 2-Aug-2018 14:43

2 people support this post

On the case of Tesla, maybe their need to guarantee to buy all wrecks off insurance companies to stop them getting into DIY hands

gzt

10038 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1518

Reply # 2066878 2-Aug-2018 14:53

One person supports this post

For some reason this reminds me of the days when manufacturers filled modules with horrible black gunk to prevent component level repair. Well ok maybe the gunk had other functions in those cases..

frankv

2387 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1163

Lifetime subscriber

Reply # 2066880 2-Aug-2018 14:55

One person supports this post

Yup... also involved in this is copyrighting of car parts, so that you can only buy after-market parts from the car manufacturer.

Car manufacturers expect to make about 20% IIRC of their income from sales of spare parts.

Dingbatt

3360 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 570

Lifetime subscriber

Reply # 2066881 2-Aug-2018 14:57

One person supports this post

I guess when it comes to proprietary software that has been developed at a cost by the OEM, then they would at the very least have the ability to charge the third party repairer a royalty or licence fee to use that software.
The difficulty with legislation of this type is what sort of charge would be fair to all parties?

Areas of Geek interest: Home Theatre, HTPC, Android Tablets & Phones, iProducts.

Wade

2166 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 358

Reply # 2066884 2-Aug-2018 15:05

One person supports this post

For an insight into black market Tesla repairs follow RichRebuilds on youtube

Scariest thing is Tesla can blacklist cars and disable features remotely and at whim it would seem i.e. super charging

kingdragonfly

1268 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 627

Reply # 2066933 2-Aug-2018 16:36

A bit of a long video, 12 minutes, but mentions in passing cars and tractors.

Do You Have a Right To Repair Your Phone? The Fight Between Big Tech and Consumers

shrub

474 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 86

Reply # 2066979 2-Aug-2018 17:10

One person supports this post

This is also happening with AIO computers. If a screen dies and its your fault good luck buying a replacement. Even if you want to pay for it to be repaired they can/will refuse.

Apple is really bad for this check out this series https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwEInwvFbwk

kingdragonfly

1268 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 627

Reply # 2067044 2-Aug-2018 18:16

mattwnz: Doesn't the CGA partly do this already?

If I understand it, US corporation lobbied hard to pass the evil "Digital Millennium Copyright Act."

While the act was sold as protecting musicians, sculpture, painters and the like, it means software is also copyrighted.

Of course the US corporations, like Tesla, Apple, John Deere and Microsoft, are pressuring the rest of the world enforce to the same act.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act#Criticisms

Geektastic

11716 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3792

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

Reply # 2067057 2-Aug-2018 18:44

One person supports this post

Some of these things are pretty expensive. You can get one that will do all the stuff in Land Rovers and Range Rovers but the unit costs CAD$3000 for the pro version and GBP500/year in software subs.

There is a more basic version that costs CAD700 if you only want to work on one vehicle and with less functionality.

I presume that there are similar things available for other car makes.

josephhinvest

1196 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 152

Trusted

Reply # 2067076 2-Aug-2018 19:34

plod: On the case of Tesla, maybe their need to guarantee to buy all wrecks off insurance companies to stop them getting into DIY hands

Agree. This Tesla case is complex, a written off car from another country repaired by unknown persons; I think it’s reasonable for a manufacturer to not support it.

tripper1000

623 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 404

Reply # 2067450 3-Aug-2018 13:17

One person supports this post

People are very sensitive to the purchase price but seldom consider the true total cost of ownership. Manufactures trying to get a sale roll with this aspect or human nature and discount the purchase price (sometimes making a loss) with the expectation of making profit later on the sale of spares, subscriptions etc. This is true for cars, planes, printers, tools and most other things that need consumables and spares.

tripper1000

623 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 404

Reply # 2067453 3-Aug-2018 13:31

plod: On the case of Tesla, maybe their need to guarantee to buy all wrecks off insurance companies to stop them getting into DIY hands

Salvaged Tesla batteries are extremely popular with off-grid guys and EV converters. You'd stifle a whole other area of innovation/repair.

The media loves to roast Tesla. If a rebuilt car has a problem due to an unrepaired or latent problem from the initial crash (eg catches fire, kills passengers in autopilot mode or the motor falls out on the highway) Tesla will cop the blame, not the guy that made the error/omission. Also, giving away free power is not a sustainable business model - Tesla would have budgeted on attrition reducing their liability for this over time. If you let people endlessly rebuild the cars and receive free super-charging for ever they'll be giving away free power still in 100 years time.

graemeh

2078 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 230

Subscriber

Reply # 2067467 3-Aug-2018 14:03

One person supports this post

josephhinvest:
plod: On the case of Tesla, maybe their need to guarantee to buy all wrecks off insurance companies to stop them getting into DIY hands

Agree. This Tesla case is complex, a written off car from another country repaired by unknown persons; I think it’s reasonable for a manufacturer to not support it.

I would be interested to hear why you feel it is reasonable for a manufacturer to not support one of their cars? I'm not saying they should do it for free but it should be available.

In the case of the guy from NZ currently fighting with Tesla he obtained written confirmation from Tesla that the car had super charging, he attempted to have a Tesla approved repairer do the job but none would and after the car was repaired he paid Tesla to inspect it and they issued a certificate stating that the car was safe.

Hard to see what else he could have done and Tesla's position on this would seem to be unreasonable.

If Tesla continue to do this all they will do is increase insurance premiums for all Tesla owners (as insurers won't be able to sell the wrecks for as much as they otherwise could).

MikeAqua

4784 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1932

Reply # 2067492 3-Aug-2018 14:59

One person supports this post

graemeh:

In the case of the guy from NZ currently fighting with Tesla he obtained written confirmation from Tesla that the car had super charging, he attempted to have a Tesla approved repairer do the job but none would and after the car was repaired he paid Tesla to inspect it and they issued a certificate stating that the car was safe.

Hard to see what else he could have done and Tesla's position on this would seem to be unreasonable.

That does sound unreasonable - more like the behaviour of a phone manufacturer than a car manufacturer.

Mike

1 | 2