Considering a used EV or hybrid

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Considering a used EV or hybrid

SomePostman

139 posts

Master Geek

#272916 24-Jul-2020 14:32

My wife is very interested in getting a Nissan Leaf but the more I look into it, I'm not sure its the best option. I've pinned my thoughts down to a few, so if you have any experiences or views on these options, fire away.

Current car being replaced: 2006 Mazda Premacy 7 seater. I have two kids, so the 7 seater has just been a 'nice to have' but it's mostly my parents we end up taking with us when we all go out for lunch etc. We have another ICE Honda Civic, so this car is primarily a daily round towner. Would look to spend approx $15k.

Option 1 - Nissan Leaf
PROS - cheapest running costs, emissions
CONS - longevity of the battery

Option 2 - Toyota Prius Alpha hybrid
PROS - 7 seater, range
CONS - seem to hold value and may only find a 2012 for this price.

Option 3 - Toyota Aqua hybrid
PROS - Cheap running, seem to be able to get newer car in more interesting colours for same price (as Prius)
CONS -

Option 4 - Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid (PHV)
PROS - Best of both worlds? May be able to do much of the driving on electric, but still be able to take on longer trips or have to worry about range
CONS - not that many aroud. Would be a 2012 (Leafs and Aqua you can often find 2014 etc for same price)

I came in thinking of option 1, but leaning more towards Option 4 (but there are reasons to go for 2 and 3)

1 | 2 | 3

5429 posts

Uber Geek

#2528225 24-Jul-2020 14:35

It seems like the battery fatigue thing is becoming more and more affordable to resolve for the Leaf... once you get down to unusable range there may well be an affordable upgrade.

I'd be inclined to run a Leaf into the ground - the S models can have double-dins fitted to them to retrofit Android Auto or Apple Car Play capability. In two or three years time the local solutions for battery repair/upgrades that are picking up steam should be a chunk more affordable.

MightyApe

You will find anything you want at MightyApe (affiliate link).

SomePostman

139 posts

Master Geek

#2528229 24-Jul-2020 14:45

GV27:

It seems like the battery fatigue thing is becoming more and more affordable to resolve for the Leaf... once you get down to unusable range there may well be an affordable upgrade.

I'd be inclined to run a Leaf into the ground - the S models can have double-dins fitted to them to retrofit Android Auto or Apple Car Play capability. In two or three years time the local solutions for battery repair/upgrades that are picking up steam should be a chunk more affordable.

I've been thinking the same thing. Given the popularity of them as the first 'affordable used EV' in a few years there would be either 3rd party alternatives or companies that recondition them. This is purely speculation though, because from what I understand the only current option is to buy a battery from a wrecked leaf, although I read about a company in NZ that is developing a battery but is looking for people to spend $20k on the prototypes

wellygary

7384 posts

Uber Geek

#2528239 24-Jul-2020 15:10

If you intend to retain your ICE, Then the leaf is pretty much the cheapest Bang for your $$,

But, I get the feeling that you are hoping to be able to downsize to one vehicle ,

and if that is the case then go for the PHEV and push out the budget a bit as you will be saving the costs of holding two cars right from the get go....

tchart

2299 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#2528269 24-Jul-2020 16:17

Just throwing this out there but you can buy a brand new Suzuki Swift hybrid for $26,500. They have finance for "$114" a week apparently.

RUKI

1346 posts

Uber Geek

#2528890 26-Jul-2020 11:52

Very rarely visiting forums these days. My 2 cents:

Your budget is $15k.

Option 1 - Nissan Leaf - doubtful you'll get decent Leaf for that budget

Option 2 - Toyota Prius Alpha hybrid - doubtful you'll get decent V (Alpha) for that budget

Option 3 - Toyota Aqua hybrid - you can find decent one even below that budget. There are millions of Aquas sold in Japan. Dealers are bringing 2015 now for about your budget. I have even converted to English 2019 Aqua (was about $22000 drive away from memory) Battery is only 20 modules - cheap and easy to rebuild. My company has NZ New Prisu C. Awesome car. Note: one dealer recently brought 3 Aquas with dead batteries. I happen to test 3 x 20 modules packs couple of days ago.

Option 4 - Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid (PHV) - ZVW35 option starts from 2014 doubtful you get decent one for your budget. Li battery in it is very expensive to upgrade (if fails) and the only option is new from Japan (circa 15.000 NZD) I have done a lot of dash conversions for those and people were getting around 18-20km on full charge in them. Note: 50-series plug-in it out of your budget.

Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair

old3eyes

8996 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#2528949 26-Jul-2020 13:25

Toyota NZ is currently selling Prius Plugin hybrids in NZ signature class imports..

https://www.toyota.co.nz/used-vehicles/?dealerid=0&location=All&tci=true&searchterm=PHEV;+PHV&sorting=6

Regards,

Old3eyes

Rikkitic

Awrrr
17253 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2528962 26-Jul-2020 13:59

I have a friend who just bought a used Leaf. Not sure how old. I think he paid 12k. Not yet sure what the actual range is. It is supposed to be about 100 km but probably less. So far no problems and he is quite happy with it. He expects there to be doable upgrade options by the time he needs them.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

JoshWright

389 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted

#2528981 26-Jul-2020 15:40

I would go full EV if I were in your situation. $15k is right about what you need to spend to get a decent Leaf, anything less and they're likely to have a pretty worn battery.

Having driven Toyota hybrids before the driving experience just doesn't compare (noisy transmissions and pretty gutless) to a full EV. The non plug-in Toyota hybrids are very reliable, but I still don't think they're very pleasant to drive. The plug in Prius has such a small EV range that it's not really worth the premium over a standard Prius, and its Li-ion battery differs to the NiMH batteries in standard Toyota hybrids, so is expensive and hard to source if something goes wrong.

For $15k, you could get into a 2015 Leaf (with the newer battery chemistry) with around 80% capacity left, which will give you a real world range of 100 - 120kms. If you could stretch to $20k (financing will likely cost less than previous fuel expenses) you could get into a 30kWh Leaf, which will give you even more range.

KrazyKid

1197 posts

Uber Geek

#2529028 26-Jul-2020 17:36

Doh. Wrote a long reply but deleted in by accident.

The short was for around town a 24kw lead suits my family fine (4 peeps including 2 kids).
Saving $1500 a year on running costs on about 8-10 000 km/year.
If going out of town ok with planning but regular long distance trips are another thing. I've hired an car for holidays ( but also taken the Leaf sometimes).

If a leaf is a second car it's a no brainier in my opinon.
Cheap to run and good for the environment.

Replacement batteries currently cost around 7-10k depend on what you start with and want to finish with. $15k can get you a upgrade to a 30KW battery size. Hopefully will get cheaper over time. (Link below to one of several suppliers's of replacement batteries in NZ)

https://evsenhanced.com/services/hv-battery-swaps-and-upgrades/

Scott3

3340 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2529077 26-Jul-2020 18:13

My thoughts are that the like's of a Prius C / Aqua, Suzuki swift etc are a bit small to be a daily driver for somebody with two kids.

Note that the Suzuki swift hybrid is a "Mild hybrid" with a 48 volt traction system(means it can't move without starting the engine), so not directly comparable to the Toyota's which are "Full Hybrid" (using traction systems at 144v or higher).

My shortlist would be:

Nissan Leaf.

Great option for a city car, Your budget will buy a post mid cycle refresh first generation leaf (Chassis code AZE0, often refereed to as gen 1.2, or wrongly as gen 2), with a battery state of health between 70% and 85%. New range on these is about 135km, so you would need to be happy to live with a cira 95km range for this car. The leaf's with tired batteries charge slow-ish at rapid charger's, so probiably not workable to leave town (but sounds like you perfer your other car for that.

As hatchbacks go, the leaf is at the bigger end of the scale, and has a respectable boot. Also the back seat is set fairly high (battery under it), which is something I always liked as a kid.

Other than the traction battery's state of health, they are typically in good condition. Quite a common car, so a wealth of knowledge is available. In general they are highly reliable, with a few known issues such as the potential for rust on the top of the strut towers, and the 12v battery failing to be charged properly by the car, so needing an external charge at regular intervals.

Reasonable basic spec with key-less entry etc. Cars with side airbags, Bose audio, 360 degree, dark interior, LED headlights etc are available, but generally command a slightly higher price.

Might need to budget for a sparky to put in a charge outlet at your parking space.

Perhaps consider renting one for a a few days to see if it meets your needs. Bluecars, and some of the peer to peer rental websites have them available.

Toyota Prius - A little bigger than the Prius C/Aqua, yet get's similar fuel economy to the aqua. Your budget gets you a 3rd generation car. Highly reliable, and being a popular pick in the taxi / ride-hail industry, there is an active aftermarket to fix issues that are unlikely that a private owner would come across.

2012 - 2013 Plug in Prius - Basically the same as the above, but with a bigger battery (Li Rather then Ni-MH). Being able to plug in is a nice, but apparently the implementation in this generation was a bit of a weak effort. Electric range is very short, and you can't press the accelerator very hard before the petrol engine kicks in to help.

Prius V / Alpha - 5 & 7 seat available. Would need to check the back to seats as I suspect they are like an SUV, and only suitable for quite small kids. Great interior space otherwise. Drive train is largely the same as the prius (except change to lithem battery on the 7 seater), so good reliability could be expected, will be a touch slower as the body is a bit bigger & heavier.

Estima Hybrid - Bigger minivan - if the Prius V / alpha is to small (otherwise the above is likely a better city car). Gets sliding doors which are good for kids.

Double your budget option:

Nissan e-NV200 7 seater. i.e:

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/nissan/listing/2253808330

Basically a 24kWh leaf with an actively cooled battery (Battery should last longer than in a leaf) & a small van body. The one linked above is a 2016, with 13,045km asking $27k. Pretty much this and the Tesla model X are the only 7 seat pure EV's in NZ.

ANglEAUT

1944 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2529159 26-Jul-2020 19:41

SomePostman: My wife is very interested in getting a Nissan Leaf ...
... I have two kids, ... but it's mostly my parents we end up taking ...

When going for a test drive, take your parents along. Do they feel comfortable getting into & out of the back seat? As an example, my mother in law chose her current car primarily because she was not "falling" into a too low seat.
For the Prius, others have said more than I could. I heard one person mention the Prius feels sluggish during pull away.
For the full EV (Leaf)
- As with hard drives, RAM & CPU, you'll want the biggest battery you can get for your money. Larger batteries mean longer range, less wear & tear on the battery itself
- I do ride-share driving in my 24kW Leaf. Every quarter, I get a service done for <$70. Driven 100 000+ km in 2 years. Still got the original brakes from Japan
- Passenger often comment on how comfy the leaf is.
- Boot is truly large. Holds 2.5x large suitcases easily
- Super smooth ride 😁
- When I still had full battery range available we calculated driving from Auckland to Napier in the Leaf. Having to charge up to 4x at 30-60min each could double the travelling time. So no long distances for use at the time.
- Waking up every morning with a full "tank" for $2-$3 is a beaut. No stopping for fuel during the day.
- I charge off a standard 8A plug overnight. Simply plug into a wall socket, no special charger required at home.

Please keep this GZ community vibrant by contributing in a constructive & respectful manner.

SomePostman

139 posts

Master Geek

#2529220 26-Jul-2020 23:42

Thank you all for your informative thoughts. Based on this and a lot of reading and talking to a couple of people I know that own a leaf, I think this is the direction I'm going to go. I will keep the Civic for a few more years and by then some EV with bigger range may be more affordable. Normally cars are such bad investments but I was contemplating I'd benefit far more from $15k saving me on petrol than how much I'd earn from any interest in an account.

One option would be to buy a no-thrills 'S' and concentrate on getting the best battery SoH. Plus i could put an Android head unit in.

I'm not sure there's almost any extras that I'd 'have' to have...

Cruise control... Mostly going to be stop start traffic
LED lights... Apart from being energy efficient is there any gain?
Auto lights... Nice but wouldn't really pay extra for
10 air bags... Probably the only thing I'd consider paying extra for but this car is only likely to ever be involved in fender benders
360 camera seems cool but I'd imagine it would be a pretty loaded car for that
Bose audio... Would be nice but not going to change car I'm eating up to get it?

I've heard "b mode" is a good way to drive, which you don't get on the S base model, but I'm not sure I'd miss it? What things would you say I should look for?

ANglEAUT

1944 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2529223 27-Jul-2020 05:25

SomePostman: ... Normally cars are such bad investments but I was contemplating I'd benefit far more from $15k saving me on petrol than how much I'd earn from any interest in an account. ...

With the initial higher purchase price of EV's, you have to drive many km's to realise the fuel cost savings. If you only drive short distances, it's going to take a very long time to notice that fuel cost savings.

Please keep this GZ community vibrant by contributing in a constructive & respectful manner.

SomePostman

139 posts

Master Geek

#2529234 27-Jul-2020 08:00

I don't think any car would have a pay back period. They're all bad investments. But going by your point, say I could have buy a similar age ICE for $10, what is the opportunity cost of that $5k extra? I think you could earn maybe $80 after tax per year with it earning interest?

xpd

aka Fast Raccoon !
13023 posts

Uber Geek

Retired Mod

ID Verified

Trusted

Lifetime subscriber

#2529251 27-Jul-2020 08:55

Anything with a used battery, get it tested. Or else could find out you're paying a decent whack a new one when it gives up..... thats what I've learnt about Hybrid/EV's....

Gavin / xpd / FastRaccoon / Geek of Coastguard New Zealand

LinkTree - kiwiblast.co.nz - Lego and more

Support Kiwi music! The People Black Smoke Trigger Like A Storm Devilskin

NZ GEEKS Discord______________________________

1 | 2 | 3