Thoughts in 2023 of Second Hand Hybrids?

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Jaxson

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#303991 26-Mar-2023 21:08

Like many I suspect a more energy efficient/less emissions vehicle is on the radar, and also like many budget is a factor.

Likes of Prius, Prius PHEV, Outlander PHEV, Aqua etc from that say 2013 - 2015 era.

By that age the batteries should be pretty well used, original performance well degraded, and any known faults very well uncovered.

I'm really interested to hear how people have got on purchasing and running second hand hybrid vehicles. Is it working out for you or are you just spending more petrol money lugging the extra weight of poor capacity exhausted batteries around with you? Assuming a PHEV has a smaller battery bank, so should be ok charging from a standard outlet overnight etc.

Separately, are there common place options to replace the battery packs on these to renew them?
I've heard horror stories of $20 - $30k to replace likes of leaf batteries, but hopefully a PHEV or standard hybrid should be a lot less given they obviously have a lot less batteries in the first place.

Sort of some direct questions in there, but asking for your experiences in general too here, just so I'm a bit more informed on the whole concept.

Thanks!

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Mad Scientist
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#3055048 26-Mar-2023 21:20

i'd like to know if there are easy ways for the average buyer to check the battery health of self charging hybrids

their capacity is 1-2kWh and by the time it gets to 5 years old it would have had thousands to tens of thousands of discharge cycles

Behodar

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#3055051 26-Mar-2023 21:33

Jaxson:

Separately, are there common place options to replace the battery packs on these to renew them?
I've heard horror stories of $20 - $30k to replace likes of leaf batteries, but hopefully a PHEV or standard hybrid should be a lot less given they obviously have a lot less batteries in the first place.

I looked up the price of a battery before buying my (brand new) hybrid, and from memory it was around $800 for a third-party one. I imagine that a first-party one would be a bit more, but it didn't seem unsurmountable. Like you say, there's no huge battery bank in a standard hybrid so that knocks the cost down a lot.

I'm not so sure about a PHEV: The Prius Prime was around $10k more than the non-PHEV version when I looked, and I suspect a lot of that is for the batteries. There are likely to be a lot more than in a standard hybrid.

dpf81nz

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#3055057 26-Mar-2023 21:42

i purchased a 2013 Prius Alpha last year, mainly my wife and kids are using it

I got a battery test before purchasing it, had 70% battery health. 1 year in it still seems fine, we are spending considerably less on it than the small SUV i drive, which has a similar engine size and gets driven far less km's every month than the prius does.

gzt

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#3055064 26-Mar-2023 21:56

Like any vehicle it's preferable to buy relatively low kms. There's a good selection in NZ ex Japan around 60,000km and reasonably priced. Imo you really can't go wrong with Toyota hybrids. I bought my 2011 XW20 at that point, now sitting on 160. It had it's first brake replacement last year, other than that just oil changes.

PHEV have a hefty premium imo. Halfway to electric for people with range concerns. Secondhand there's more around than pure electric in nz so halfway to electric in a price sense may work for some people.

In any case Toyota just bumped their USA battery warranty to 150,000 miles about 240,000km for the 2020 PHEV and you can expect most people will get more than that. On the 2013-2015 stuff you are taking about I think the original USA warranty was 100,000 miles about 160,000km. Taxi drivers will tell you they get 200,000+ easy before any battery concerns. It seems not to be a practical concern for them at all.

Eva888

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#3055206 27-Mar-2023 11:12

Very happy with our 2015 Aqua which has reached about 100k. Runs on a sniff of gas, service once a year never had any mechanical issues. Sails through VTNZ warrants with compliments. Only downfall is boot space. You get one suitcase and a couple carry ons comfortably in the Aqua.

The Lexus hybrid, not as much boot space as the Aqua and in comparison it chews through gas much faster and feels as if am constantly filling it, but feels sturdier for long trips at speed. Am considering swapping the too compact Lexus for a Prius for reliability and to have more boot and cabin space although am unsure about the gas economics comparison.

When family visit, both cars are too small to accommodate luggage or passengers. Our second car used to be a station wagon and so it’s hard not to miss the roominess. I guess taxis use Prius for a reason. Daughter talked us out of a Prius on the grounds that we would look like uber drivers. I regret listening to that argument as space and reliability is paramount now.

Our second hand Aqua surprisingly was worth more than what we paid a couple years after we bought it by $2k.

Batman

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#3055209 27-Mar-2023 11:16

Economy worse with bigger cars
Economy worse with more power
Economy worse with more complexity

Prius will be between Aqua and Lexus though I have a feeling closer to Aqua

gzt

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#3055397 27-Mar-2023 14:03

Am considering swapping the too compact Lexus for a Prius for reliability and to have more boot and cabin space although am unsure about the gas economics comparison.

Prius Alpha/Prius V is a stationwagon option if you go to 2012. Still some coming in with low km. Most came with 7 airbags and all the safety features. 5L per 100km. You will get later corolla fielder hybrids they're smaller I don't like them for that reason.

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LostBoyNZ

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#3055411 27-Mar-2023 14:43

Would recommend them yes. Our 2009 Prius ZVW30 is approaching 225,000km on what I assume was probably its original battery (imported from Japan in 2016 when it had 99,000km on it) and averages 4.35L per 100km. A little over half of the use is highway driving, and around town it's more economical.

The little 12V battery was replaced a few years ago, and one of the rear door struts has an issue so the door won't stay open well on its own anymore. But I consider just those two things pretty good for a car, and our Prius before that just as reliable.

nzben

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#3055457 27-Mar-2023 18:17

2013 Prius. Does about 850-900km on a 40L tank, which seems reasonable. Not sure of the battery status, it just works as a self contained system

Jaxson

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#3072165 4-May-2023 10:42

Is there an iOS battery check app for like of Outlander PHEVs etc?

Likes of Watchdog and EvBatMon for android via OBD-II bluetooth dongle.

butlerboy

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#3072345 4-May-2023 15:44

We bought my wife a 2011 Lexus CT200h that had done 70,000k about 1 year ago. She's done about 15,000 over the last year, a mix of open road and town driving. She loves the car and it's been 100% reliable so far. We're getting just under 5l/100km without even trying. Very happy with our purchase so far.

Scott3

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#3072549 5-May-2023 00:23

Jaxson:

Like many I suspect a more energy efficient/less emissions vehicle is on the radar, and also like many budget is a factor.

Likes of Prius, Prius PHEV, Outlander PHEV, Aqua etc from that say 2013 - 2015 era.

By that age the batteries should be pretty well used, original performance well degraded, and any known faults very well uncovered.

I'm really interested to hear how people have got on purchasing and running second hand hybrid vehicles. Is it working out for you or are you just spending more petrol money lugging the extra weight of poor capacity exhausted batteries around with you? Assuming a PHEV has a smaller battery bank, so should be ok charging from a standard outlet overnight etc.

Separately, are there common place options to replace the battery packs on these to renew them?
I've heard horror stories of $20 - $30k to replace likes of leaf batteries, but hopefully a PHEV or standard hybrid should be a lot less given they obviously have a lot less batteries in the first place.

Sort of some direct questions in there, but asking for your experiences in general too here, just so I'm a bit more informed on the whole concept.

Thanks!

It's quite dependent on model / brand

The Toyota / Lexus hybrids with NiMH batteries (most of them) are very mature, and the tech has proven highly reliable. In short, unless you are going to thrash them in taxi duty (and they aren't ex the tropics like Singapore), It is likely the battery will outlast the rest of the car. And thanks to the taxi industry, there is an active aftermarket in the big cities who will swap our models, or replace the pack with an aftermarket one at a pretty reasonable cost.

I have owned a 2006 Lexus 400h with 225,000km for about 4 years. No issues with the hybrid side of the car yet (but it has needed a bunch of money spent on other area's)

The Toyota / Lexus hybrids with Lithem batteries (Both the non plug in's like the 7 seat prius alpha, and the plug in ones like the prius plug in / prius prime) arn't really old enough yet to know how the packs will last, but there don't seem to be any red flags yet.

Again, not to much known about brands newer to the hybrid space (honda Jazz e:HEV, Nissan note e-power etc), but not really any red flags.

Mitsubishi PHEV's have got a fairly bad rep. There is massive vairation between individual cars. Used car buyers can check how the battery is degrading and avoid the one's where the battery has degraded fast. For new car buyers it is basically luck. One geekzone user was seriously considering litigation after Mitsubishi initially refused a warranty claim on a battery that had dropped to 65% health in 4 years. Ultimately Mitsubishi must have come to party in some way.

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=162&topicid=288380

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How is it working out for me owning the hybrid?

The Lexus RX400h was the worlds first hybrid that favored performance over economy. In short, it gets the fuel economy of a 4 cylinder SUV of the era, while having faster acceleration than most of the v8 SUV's of the era (BMW X5 etc). There is actually a table in the front of the manual / brochure folder setting out the 0-100 times and L/100km of it alongside vairous v8 SUV's.

Roughly stacked up in the real world too. RX400h would slightly beat a family members 4 cylinder outlander of the same year on the open road for fuel economy, despite the RX400h having 200kW on tap, and being much more comfortable (over 2000kg empty of sound deadening and plush leather sets). (not the Lexus runs 95RON, the outlander runs 91RON)

In heavy city traffic hybrid's come into their own. In really heavy traffic, the lexus would eaisly beat my corolla hatch of a similar era in fuel economy.

In terms of numbers (all dash reported l/100km of 95RON):

The rating is 8.1 L/100km

General urban use (inner Auckland) is typical 8 - 9 L/100km

Long open road trip on say a holiday weekend where traffic is flowing at 70km/h: around 7 L/100km

Typical open road running around 8L/100km

Open road running with a lot of 110km/h speed limit sections: getting towards 9L/100km

Towing a little trailer: around 7L - 8L (going a little slower due to the 90km/h trailer speed limit

Towing the limit of the tow rating (1500kg race yacht): 14.5 - 16L/100km largely dependent on speed traveled. Last trip was through northland, and the roads are in a poor state, and the vehicle was very loaded, so I drove slower than normal, yielding the lower number.

Note that the later RX's are much more economical than mine. And something like a Prius alpha will use roughly half the fuel of me.

I rented a (non hybrid v6) highlander in the south island (much more modern car than mine, similar power, rated something like 8 - 9L/100km), and was quite shocked how much fuel it used in the city (and the urban running I was doing in Christchurch is easy from an economy perspective compared to what I do in Auckland). something like 13L/100km (on 91 RON).

These days the bulk of our running is done in the leaf, and we only really break out the lexus when we need two cars, to tow, or make a long trip, so economy isn't super important to us due to the low annual mileage.

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On PHEV's. Yeah, the batteries on most of them are small enough to charge with a wall cord overnight. Most of them are fitted with 3.6kW chargers, so getting a wallbox would half the charge time, which could be usefull if you operational pattern allowed for a top off in the middle of the day.

On PHEV's, note there is wide variation in the fuel economy in hybrid mode (once you run the battery out). Prius Plug in / Prime is class leading (basically the same as the non hybrid prius). Something like a Mini Countryman plug in, Or BMW i3 REX is pretty bad. Also wide variation in electric range between models.

Scott3

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#3072551 5-May-2023 00:31

LostBoyNZ:

Would recommend them yes. Our 2009 Prius ZVW30 is approaching 225,000km on what I assume was probably its original battery (imported from Japan in 2016 when it had 99,000km on it) and averages 4.35L per 100km. A little over half of the use is highway driving, and around town it's more economical.

The little 12V battery was replaced a few years ago, and one of the rear door struts has an issue so the door won't stay open well on its own anymore. But I consider just those two things pretty good for a car, and our Prius before that just as reliable.

On the gas structs, this is a pretty easy DIY replacement. Did it on my corolla in 2018. Cost me $50 for the pair.

Scott3

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#3072552 5-May-2023 00:56

Batman:

i'd like to know if there are easy ways for the average buyer to check the battery health of self charging hybrids

their capacity is 1-2kWh and by the time it gets to 5 years old it would have had thousands to tens of thousands of discharge cycles

Not really for Toyota's at least.

I took mine to the battery clinic, and they ran the battery down while hooked up to a scan tool, and didn't find any flagging issues (but didn't give me a state of health either).

Yeah, they will have an epic number of cycles, but that is not really an issue. The batteries are tightly managed by the car, and will typically run for hundreds of thousands of KM's.

Allways interesting lookign up the highest mileage toyota hybrids on trademe (often ex taxi).

Generally having a battery replacement is a selling point so they get advertised.

At the moment there is a Prius with 420,000km. Got a new battery last year.

A camry with 380500km. Got a new battery in 2018.

A camry with 375,000km. Original Battery.

Prius 315,000km, some cells replaced last year

Prius 305,000km, Orginal battery

Prius 298,000km, Battery replaced at 180,000km

prius 288,000km, Orginal battery

Prius 282,000km, Orginal battery

Camry 252,000km, Battery health 77%

General assumption is that taxi duty is harsher than private duty. Lots of time sitting still (likely with the air con on), lots of short trips, lots of city traffic.

But from the above data, it seems that if you get a good car it will last well past 300,000km on the orginal battery. and the worst case seems to be about 180,000km.

eonsim

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#3072725 5-May-2023 15:27

Have a 2014 Outlander PHEV (~100k km) we purchased last year battery is okay, we get ~42km of the original quoted 50km not sure on the gas milage as haven't done any big trips with it. Previously had a 2011 Prius (~100k km) that was getting around 780-850km per 40L tank of gas.

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