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kingdragonfly

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#306678 12-Aug-2023 18:05
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John Deere and Equipment manufacturers have long blamed the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, when queried why they don't allow farmers the right to repair their tractors.

"We'd love to allow people to repair stuff, but the damn EPA won't let us."

The EPA Administrator just said "nope, that's a lie"

Progressive Farmer: U.S. Environmental Protection Agency | US EPA

Nothing in the Clean Air Act forbids farmers and independent repair shops from making emissions and other repairs to agriculture equipment, EPA Administrator Michael Regan said in a letter to the National Farmers Union on Aug. 4.

Equipment manufacturers often say the EPA's Clean Air Act doesn't allow farmers and independent repair shops to repair emissions equipment, raising concerns about liability for improper or even potentially dangerous repairs.

Regan went a step further in telling the group the Clean Air Act actually encourages such repairs.

"Crucially, the Clean Air Act makes no distinction between repair by a manufacturer versus another party," Regan said in the letter that was sent in response to a June 13 letter from NFU President Rob Larew.

"Actions that qualify as repair or replacement are allowed under the Clean Air Act regardless of who makes them. Moreover, nothing in the Clean Air Act or the EPA's regulations limits a manufacturer's ability to provide service tools and information to consumers and independent repair facilities for the purpose of repairing their equipment."

Regan went on to say in the letter, "The Clean Air Act denotes Congress' concern about the ways in which manufacturers might impede the ability of other parties to repair regulated equipment and puts in place safeguards to prevent that from happening."

For instance, the law prohibits manufacturers from writing their service instructions in a way that "steers end users away from independent repairers."
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tweake
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  #3115118 12-Aug-2023 19:54
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its been a similar issue with toyota shutting down people hosting manuals.

 

however the real instigators of this is the dealers because thats a big part of their income and manufactures don't want to offset that by increasing margins on selling new vehicles. 


 
 
 
 

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Kiwifan
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  #3115182 12-Aug-2023 21:02
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I saw a documentary on this with John Deere several years ago on YouTube. The farmers were furious that they couldn’t repair their gear especially when they couldn’t get the service technicians out to their farms on weekends in some of the remote communities. 

 

Not being a farmer I just watched out of interest but I could imagine their anger if they were denied their own repairs. 


mudguard
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  #3115213 13-Aug-2023 08:26
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I assume the gist of this is the manufacturer is saying the warranty is void if there are third party repairs? Or is the tractor not going to work at all if it detects third party parts?

I have read reviews of my printer detecting third party ink and not working.



tweake
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  #3115230 13-Aug-2023 10:36
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mudguard: I assume the gist of this is the manufacturer is saying the warranty is void if there are third party repairs? Or is the tractor not going to work at all if it detects third party parts?

I have read reviews of my printer detecting third party ink and not working.

 

it has nothing to do with warranties, this is for the lifetime of the vehicle. its not just restricting parts but restricting information and the tech required to access the ecu. the ecu does most of the diagnostics, its a lot harder to do it without it.

 

also things like injectors are coded to the ecu (which is normal), but if you don't have access to the ecu you can't install new injectors. or reset fuel data after replacing filter, or relearn tps.

 

it all comes down to making profit. they can lower the buy price because they make up for it with "servicing costs". i've had it at work with dealer pushing us to get the ute in early for service. their income for the month was probably down, so they push more work in to bump the monthly figures up.


Ge0rge
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  #3115231 13-Aug-2023 10:39
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It's no different to Apple not allowing owners to change parts by crippling the device if it detects that a part has been changed, or some Olympus cameras that won't turn on if they detect a non-oem battery.

tweake
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  #3115237 13-Aug-2023 11:24
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Ge0rge: It's no different to Apple not allowing owners to change parts by crippling the device if it detects that a part has been changed, or some Olympus cameras that won't turn on if they detect a non-oem battery.

 

except cars and tractors are not throwaway devices.

 

it also makes it worse that you might break down in a small town where local mechanic is locked out so you have to transport it on the back of the truck it to the nearest stealership, which is in the city. a $100 part now cost you thousands.

 

also what happens if it becomes a holden, ie the manufacture disappears and your stuck with a vehicle you can't service, let alone repair.


Ge0rge
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  #3115239 13-Aug-2023 11:32
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Don't get me wrong, I am in no way suggesting that it is an acceptable thing, or that Apple aren't a bunch of greedy so and so's for their behaviour! There is no way that a device costing several thousands of dollars should be a throw-away item!

This is something that absolutely needs changing, and we should have right to repair legislation here in NZ, following on from what European countries are doing.



Geektastic
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  #3115395 13-Aug-2023 19:49
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I’ve worked on farms.

To be honest we never attempted anything but pretty basic repairs on the older machines. New tractors are pretty space age in their computerised systems and I’m not sure many farmers would really want to try bodging repairs on machines that can cost well north of NZ$500,000.

I’ve done basic oil and filters etc on old yard tractors etc but that’s about all, other than occasional welding if bits broke etc.

I’m sure some farmers might genuinely have people with sufficient skills to work on modern machines but in most cases I suspect not and the level of investment in modern gear would be likely to mean that genuine dealer maintenance is a better idea.





tweake
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  #3115397 13-Aug-2023 20:13
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Geektastic: I’ve worked on farms.


I’m sure some farmers might genuinely have people with sufficient skills to work on modern machines but in most cases I suspect not and the level of investment in modern gear would be likely to mean that genuine dealer maintenance is a better idea.

 

i think thats changing. with the increase in tech there is a need to employ tech minded people who can handle such tasks. those who don't are being left behind.

 

for me i'm not out in the paddocks much, i'm mostly behind the machines. either running them or fixing them. one of the problems i find is you can't just call an engineer or sparky, because they have no idea of the gear or setup you have. plus the time delay, one day out of action peak season is extremely costly. so an in house repair guy saves a lot of $$$.


Azzura
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  #3115443 14-Aug-2023 07:23
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Geektastic
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  #3116860 16-Aug-2023 17:27
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tweake:

Geektastic: I’ve worked on farms.


I’m sure some farmers might genuinely have people with sufficient skills to work on modern machines but in most cases I suspect not and the level of investment in modern gear would be likely to mean that genuine dealer maintenance is a better idea.


i think thats changing. with the increase in tech there is a need to employ tech minded people who can handle such tasks. those who don't are being left behind.


for me i'm not out in the paddocks much, i'm mostly behind the machines. either running them or fixing them. one of the problems i find is you can't just call an engineer or sparky, because they have no idea of the gear or setup you have. plus the time delay, one day out of action peak season is extremely costly. so an in house repair guy saves a lot of $$$.



I don’t disagree. Of course, you’d need a lot of machinery before it became cost effective.

Personally, if I’d spent the thick end of a million dollars on some fancy articulated rubber track monster, I’d want factory trained technicians working on it!





tweake
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  #3116893 16-Aug-2023 19:35
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Geektastic: 

I don’t disagree. Of course, you’d need a lot of machinery before it became cost effective.

Personally, if I’d spent the thick end of a million dollars on some fancy articulated rubber track monster, I’d want factory trained technicians working on it!

 

it doesn't take that much gear to be cost effective, its down to how technical the gear is and cost of lost production.

 

the simple problem is those techs are not on site. you either have to get the gear to them or they have to come out. the time its takes for that to happen your loosing huge money. really annoying is when its a basic fix. ecu tells you sensor is faulty, replace sensor and your away. 30 minute job, not wait 3 days for a tech to get there.

 

even for me, i was out in the field, machine in the plant failed. staff get sent home, a day of production lost. i get back, 5 minute fix.

 

also "factory trained tech" could be just the apprentice that gets sent out and you know more on that machine than he does. 

 

 

 

 


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