V2L (Vehicle to Load) equipment for EVs

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cthombor

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#306806 23-Aug-2023 09:26

At Dingbatt's suggestion, I'm starting a new Topic. This one will focus on V2L "Vehicle to Load" equipment for EVs. *Some* of this equipment uses the AC charging port... so it seemed appropriate to discuss it in the EVSE topic, see e.g. https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=162&topicid=293309&page_no=19#3118109.

However a V2L appliance cannot charge the EV, so it is definitely not an EVSE. The safety, certification and compatibility/standardisation issues are almost completely different for V2Ls than for EVSEs.

"Vehicle to home" (V2H) and "vehicle to grid" (V2G) appliances are being developed for overseas applications but have yet (AFAIK) to appear here in NZ. These appliances can behave as an EVSE (in that they can charge the EV) and they can also source AC power from the EV's traction battery (so can behave something like V2L) -- but they have *many* additional standardisation, safety, certification, and compatibility issues beyond those of a V2L appliance so I'd suggest that anyone who wants to discuss V2H or V2G start a new topic.

jonathan18

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#3119268 23-Aug-2023 09:43

To pick up on one of the posts on the other thread:

cthombor:

jonathan18:

Here's another option for a V2L adapter; this time Aus-made. Reasonable price - the cheapest (1m cable; single socket) is $155 AU including shipping to NZ: https://evchargers.com.au/product/v2l-cable/

That Aus-made one is the best I have seen. The socket looks like it'd mate with a Clipsal 56 3-flat pin 10A plug (https://www.clipsal.com/products/detail?CatNo=56P310&itemno=56P310-EO); but at this price the assembler will almost surely be using a knockoff of the Clipsal 56 socket, so I wouldn't be confident of the quality of its build and quality-control (especially of the all-important plating on the contacts inside the socket). You could stress-test the socket quality by plugging a 10A EVSE (or a 2kW space-heater) into it, to see if the socket & plug get more than a bit warm after 15 minutes. I rather doubt you'd get an SDoC from this vendor but it wouldn't hurt to ask! There's also a question in my mind of quality-control -- looks like a low-volume item which might be assembled only after an order comes in, rather than something assembled by a manufacturer which is certified to ISO 9001.... then again, it might be assembled in a high-quality Chinese factory, and being sold into Oz by a web-retailer? Despite these misgivings : I'd say it's a nice design which might even qualify for IP65 -- if it were tested. Much will depend on the grommets sealing the two ends of the cable with the Type2 plug at one end and the Clipsal-ish socket at the other end. Your Dad may not have any gear with a Clipsal 56 10A plug but it's not hard to imagine someone fitting one of these to an 8A EVSE. (It would be outside WorkSafe recommendations to have a 10A EVSE fitted with a 10A plug, or even with a 15A plug that isn't monitored for over-temperature by the EVSE.)

Had a response from the seller of this adapter: "We anticipate our MG ZS cable will be compatible with the MG4, but we will wait till we get our hands on an MG4 to conclusively confirm and perform further testing."

@cthombor: would you suggest I wait to have this confirmation, or do you think it's a very low risk of incompatibility?

And, just to follow up on some earlier questions from that same thread: "Is the type of socket going to be fine for general use? I’m unlikely to be running a 2000w heater for a long time (though get your point that it’s essentially a stress test); just needing to ensure we can run key things off it in an emergency - LED lights, microwave, jug and (most importantly) espresso machine and grinder! (I think you’ve mixed me up with siyuan, whose father has the ZS; I’m buying this for my wife’s yet-to-arrive MG4.)"

Many thanks.

cthombor

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#3119290 23-Aug-2023 10:36

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=162&topicid=293309&page_no=20#3119066:

jonathan18: Thanks for another comprehensive analysis.

The Aus website doesn’t state that if it’s compatible with the MG4; I’ve asked them to confirm, but I’m sure I read here (or elsewhere) that technically any adapter should work with any V2L-enabled car, or did I interpret that incorrectly? (Either way I’d rather have them confirm this just to be sure!)

Is the type of socket going to be fine for general use? I’m unlikely to be running a 2000w heater for a long time (though get your point that it’s essentially a stress test); just needing to ensure we can run key things off it in an emergency - LED lights, microwave, jug and (most importantly) espresso machine and grinder! (I think you’ve mixed me up with siyuan, whose father has the ZS; I’m buying this for my wife’s yet-to-arrive MG4.)

Interesting thoughts on the NZ made one; they’ve also reported they could make a single socket version but it wouldn’t cost less. At this point, the Aus product is my likely purchase.

Hi Jonathan18, please understand that I have no professional credentials in electrical safety or certification. However I'm able to read spec sheets and schematics of electrical equipment; in my youth I had repaired more than 1000 televisions as a part-time job; and (fortunately!) I haven't yet managed to electrocute myself my "hobby" level maintenance & repair (plus a bit of hacking ;-) on gear for my e-NV200 e-motorhome. So my answers to your questions are just my "best guess" opinion -- subject to revision whenever someone who really knows their stuff points out an error or omission in my reasoning or knowledge!

* I'd strongly recommend against purchasing any V2L appliance for any vehicle without some assurance from the vendor that it'll work on your EV (make, model, year, *and* spec).

There's a warning at https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004521686245.html that "2023 mg zs ev (with small battery (50,3 kWh)) not anymore compatible with V2L, only 69,9 kWh battery has V2L,pls double check your car before you make order."

The standardisation of V2L is a terrible mess!

Until recently, the only V2L was in vehicles (such as many Nissan e-NV200s, or all Ford F150 Lightnings) which offer bog-standard AC power points. A few manufacturers have, very recently, started selling EVs with a V2L feature which *energises* the AC charging port on the vehicle if you insert a Type2 plug which (somehow! using a proprietary protocol) persuades the EV to do this.

https://www.speakev.com/threads/what-is-v2l-and-how-does-iso-15118-20-affect-the-future-of-v2l.175772/: " As of 2022, no manufacturer released a V2L solution that followed a specific international standard, they all released a proprietary implementation of V2L. As such the cables we make for MG (Modular Scalable Platform MSP) and Kia/Hyundai/Genesis (Electric Global Modular Platform E-GMP) are not interchangeable and work on completely different operating principles. MSP uses a sense resistor and E-GMP uses a combination of sense resistor and state change trigger. One thing to note is that there is no communication taking place, both these implementations use passive circuit components which the EV identifies as a discharge request rather than a charge request."

* I am not competent to give safety advice, but IMHO all of the "usual" safety hazards of using electrical equipment outdoors in NZ are magnified by V2L. There's a long list of such hazards at https://www.hyundai.co.nz/v2l.

Any electrical appliance with a 3-pin plug has been designed for safe operation if their third (grounding) pin is a "protective earth" (PE). There's an earthing rod on every household, and it's hugely important for safety. When you plug a 3-pin appliance into a V2L supply from a vehicle, there'll be no connection to "earth" on its third pin. It's quite possible (indeed it's a routine "hack") to put a resistor between the neutral and the ground supply from a V2L, as a way of "fooling" the RCD on an appliance (such as a modern IC-CPD with its more advanced safety features) not to trip. I do not recommend using such tricks. However: it wouldn't surprise me in the least if some or all of the "V2L adapters" on the market have such a resistor. Caveat emptor!

* I see some longterm hope for a V2L setup to be fully compliant with all relevant electrical-safety regulations in NZ, but I suspect some regulatory changes will be required before this will be possible.

Possibly: an assembly that meets IP66 requirements for water incursion, and has "double insulated" appliances (which do not require a PE for safe operation), would someday be economically feasible? Until such time... well... the Clipsal 56ish looking socket is probably as good as any extension lead for powering appliances, and it has some additional "security theatre" value from its close resemblance to equipment that has been tested to IP66 by a reputable lab... and for all I know it really does have an IP66 rating! That said, I wouldn't load it (or any other 10A socket) at 10A continuously for more than an hour or three -- it might overheat if some pins or sockets have become corroded (e.g. from salt misty air) or pitted (from being connected or disconnected under load).

* My *personal* approach is to be double-careful when using V2L. During a recent 3-day power outage at my home, I ran a lead from an (in-cabin) 15A 230VAC socket in my e-motorhome into my household, powering my fibre-modem and refrigerator, as well as allowing me to make the occasional espresso or charge my portable electronics. Hugely helpful. But rather unsafe electrically, plus the trip hazard on the extension leads -- but it was for only a few days and I was alone in the house. (I sought advice from my little Alfred E Neumann statue, receiving the expected "What, me worry?" nonverbal response ;-) (The supply current was more than adequate to run my microwave, but the voltage drop (under its load) to that point (at the end of 3(!) extension leads) was excessive, so I quickly terminated that little "experiment". Alfred E Neumann's expression was, as expected, unchanged ;-)

jonathan18

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#3137152 30-Sep-2023 20:03

jonathan18: Here's another option for a V2L adapter; this time Aus-made. Reasonable price - the cheapest (1m cable; single socket) is $155 AU including shipping to NZ: https://evchargers.com.au/product/v2l-cable/

Just to follow up on this post (made in the EVSE thread): I ended up ordering one of these adapters with a 3m cable for NZ $151 (it was this cheap as for some reason they didn’t charge me the $30 delivery fee). At the point I ordered it still wasn’t reporting as being compatible with the MG4, but I note that it’s now included on the listing. Still to turn up (what is it about Australian Post - they seem to take forever) so haven’t had the opportunity to try it yet. My plan for its first use is to take a drive and make an espresso in the wops!

I was reminded about this after reading another post on a far less trivial, indeed invaluable, role that V2L can play when power goes down; as much as I like my Tesla, I’m kinda glad my wife bought the MG so we have this back-up in place (nearly…). @SaltyNZ - where do you buy your V2L cable from? Looks a bit like the ones sold on TM?

SaltyNZ

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#3137156 30-Sep-2023 20:31

jonathan18:

@SaltyNZ - where do you buy your V2L cable from? Looks a bit like the ones sold on TM?

Possibly, but I got it from AliExpress. This one.

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LittleGreyCat

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#3137248 1-Oct-2023 07:16

Puzzling this a bit.

V2L just seems (I say seems) to be an inverter - that is, it converts DC to AC.
These are commonplace in, for example RVs with leisure batteries and also available as stand alone where you connect them to battery terminals when you need AC.

The puzzling bit is connecting them to a house for power delivery.

If you have an emergency generator for your house wiring you need a safety switch to prevent your generator trying to power up the entire local grid and possibly killing a few workers as well.

Is this what happens with V2L or are people just running a power lead into the house (much like when camping you run a power lead into the tent)?

RunningMan

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#3137252 1-Oct-2023 08:08

@LittleGreyCat https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=162&topicid=197896&page_no=627#3136986

SaltyNZ

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#3137253 1-Oct-2023 08:14

LittleGreyCat:

Puzzling this a bit.

V2L just seems (I say seems) to be an inverter - that is, it converts DC to AC.
These are commonplace in, for example RVs with leisure batteries and also available as stand alone where you connect them to battery terminals when you need AC.

The puzzling bit is connecting them to a house for power delivery.

If you have an emergency generator for your house wiring you need a safety switch to prevent your generator trying to power up the entire local grid and possibly killing a few workers as well.

Is this what happens with V2L or are people just running a power lead into the house (much like when camping you run a power lead into the tent)?

So, I posted a photo in the general EV thread where we used ours a couple of nights ago. The V2L adapter itself has 3 outlets. The car was parked indoors in the garage. There was a short extension lead to the chest freezer (in the garage), a long outdoor/high duty extension lead running down to the water pump, and another long outdoor/high duty extension lead running inside for the fridge plus a bunch of low current devices - internet router, phone chargers. The cable to the water pump is one we have successfully and safely used to charge a Leaf outside for several years. I certainly wouldn't use a cheap, thin cable. That's asking for trouble.

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lchiu7

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#3137271 1-Oct-2023 09:37

Just a data point. The Atto3 comes with a V2L adapter free so one would assume it's safe to use. In fact in the FB BYD Atto3 group somebody shows an image using the V2L adapter on their Atto3 to provide an emergency topup to another Atto3 where they just connect the granny charger to the adapter. It would not be fast but was enough to get enough juice to the car could be driven to a fast charging station.

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#3137282 1-Oct-2023 11:16

lchiu7:

In fact in the FB BYD Atto3 group somebody shows an image using the V2L adapter on their Atto3 to provide an emergency topup to another Atto3 where they just connect the granny charger to the adapter. It would not be fast but was enough to get enough juice to the car could be driven to a fast charging station.

That was probably Gavin Shoebridge's video. He funny.

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cthombor

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#3137349 1-Oct-2023 12:32

SaltyNZ:

lchiu7:

In fact in the FB BYD Atto3 group somebody shows an image using the V2L adapter on their Atto3 to provide an emergency topup to another Atto3 where they just connect the granny charger to the adapter. It would not be fast but was enough to get enough juice to the car could be driven to a fast charging station.

That was probably Gavin Shoebridge's video. He funny.

And! Gavin is also responsible enough to explain that he does not recommend anyone else do this!

In this video, Gavin is using an old-fashioned "granny charger" (IC-CPD) which lacks the ground-fault protection feature on any IC-CPD that was legally sold in recent years.

Modern IC-CPDs won't accept power from this V2L -- because it is not offering a "protective earth" (PE) to the third pin on the IC-CPD's plug.

It's outside Worksafe's guidelines to use the aging IC-CPD which Gavin had used for a topup in this video... but that wouldn't prevent me from using mine (which looks very much like Gavin's) in an emergency! ;-)

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#3137354 1-Oct-2023 12:40

Charging Ioniq from Ioniq

cthombor

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#3137386 1-Oct-2023 15:35

RunningMan:

Charging Ioniq from Ioniq

The regulations on AC power are very different in Norway than in NZ; but it is interesting to know that Ioniq's V2L (as sold into Norway) is compatible with whatever IC-CPD was used in this video!