Israel Folau saga.

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#2264340 25-Jun-2019 18:13

tdgeek:

mm1352000:

tdgeek: How does "effeminate...shall not inherit the kingdom of God" Translate to "send all homosexuals to hell?

For what it's worth...

Obviously the "effeminate" vs. "homosexual" translation is contentious. As far as I'm aware the "homosexual" translation is more dominant/conventional today.
"...shall not inherit the kingdom of God..." is a widely understood [amongst Christians] euphemism for not going to heaven. In a traditional/fundamentalist Christian worldview, if you don't go to heaven, you go to hell.

Disclaimer: I am not a Bible scholar or a Christian.

You are going around in circles seeking justification.

I'm not trying to justify anything. I don't agree with what Folau did or said. I was simply offering a potential answer to your question based on answers I've heard other people give to similar questions.

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#2264345 25-Jun-2019 18:14

Rikkitic:

mm1352000:

Rikkitic:

I am not religious but I don't have a problem with those who are, especially if they are sincere about it. But anyone who takes today's bible literally, or even (especially) the version published in 1611, is simply being ignorant. It is a mishmash of misinterpretation and inaccurate translation and personal prejudice spanning two millennia. If you really think this is the word of god, then at least have the decency to learn Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, and spend a few decades studying some cultural archaeology so you at least have a minimal understanding of what it is actually saying.

I assume you realise that the vast majority of people who might describe themselves as sincere Christians don't learn Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.

The vast majority also don't think the bible is the literal truth.

AFAIK, the Bible is a collection of stories over time. Corinthians, as per this issue, where is that from?

tdgeek

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#2264347 25-Jun-2019 18:17

Handle9:

MikeB4: It’s saddening that so many chose religion as their excuse to be total muppets and dicks, be they for or against religion.

Yeah, it's one of those strange ones. Religion brings meaning to many peoples lives and can be very positive.

The overriding messages of Christianity are great, unfortunately some people like to tell others how to live their lives and can't see how it can be hurtful and negative to others.

Yes. My upbringing which was not religious but off course we go to bible class, get Gideons bibles. I can still recall one Minister in HD detail! Church is good. No matter what. Now I see church in AUS supporting bigotry. I hope some Churches distance themselves.

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#2264348 25-Jun-2019 18:18

mm1352000:

tdgeek:

Whats right is the common good.

This is totally an expression of your worldview. I don't mean to speak for Folau (or anybody else) but it's quite obvious that people's worldviews vary, and so not everybody shares the same worldview as you or as Folau.

Cirrect

My worldview is the most common though. Or is it?

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#2264349 25-Jun-2019 18:20

mm1352000:

tdgeek:

mm1352000:

tdgeek: How does "effeminate...shall not inherit the kingdom of God" Translate to "send all homosexuals to hell?

For what it's worth...

Obviously the "effeminate" vs. "homosexual" translation is contentious. As far as I'm aware the "homosexual" translation is more dominant/conventional today.
"...shall not inherit the kingdom of God..." is a widely understood [amongst Christians] euphemism for not going to heaven. In a traditional/fundamentalist Christian worldview, if you don't go to heaven, you go to hell.

Disclaimer: I am not a Bible scholar or a Christian.

You are going around in circles seeking justification.

I'm not trying to justify anything. I don't agree with what Folau did or said. I was simply offering a potential answer to your question based on answers I've heard other people give to similar questions.

Ironically what I see from those who dont disagree with his view is the first thing they say is I dont disagree with that view.

mm1352000

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#2264351 25-Jun-2019 18:26

tdgeek:

Ironically what I see from those who dont disagree with his view is the first thing they say is I dont disagree with that view.

If you choose not to take me at my word then I guess there's nothing I can do about that.

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#2264358 25-Jun-2019 18:34

mm1352000:

tdgeek:

Ironically what I see from those who dont disagree with his view is the first thing they say is I dont disagree with that view.

If you choose not to take me at my word then I guess there's nothing I can do about that.

Thats true. We live in 2019, not 6000 years ago, the birth of the universe. I thought God, and Jesus was about good, you have to ask that question now. I secretly belief they were or are, bit you dont see that from low moral greed people as we have seen in the news. AKA selfish. and morally corrupt but pretend to be otherwise.

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decibel

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#2264359 25-Jun-2019 18:34

tdgeek:

...I see Maria Tuiteia is being looked at by ANZ....

Yes, that will take the heat off their own internal troubles.

Rikkitic

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#2264363 25-Jun-2019 18:42

This is not about religious freedom. It is about the freedom of someone to express intolerant views that target a specific part of the population. This kind of thing has rightly been made illegal because certain backward types see it as licence to impose their own brand of thuggery on those targeted.

Narrow-minded individuals like Folau use the cloak of religion as justification for branding selected categories of people as inferior and unworthy of respect, opening the way for other thugs to take it upon themselves to inflict harm on such people. This is how the genocide in Rwanda occurred. First the victims were branded as 'cockroaches'. Then it became easier for others to hack them to death with machetes. This is the path that bigoted jerks ultimately want to lead you down.

My point is that if bigoted jerks are going to use selectively quoted texts from the bible as an authority to justify their bigotry, then they ought to at least make an effort to get it right. Forget about the typos of hung over medieval monks and other introduced inaccuracies. Go back to the source texts, learn what they actually mean, not just what you have been told they say, and then deliver your message. I still won't believe you, especially if you start prattling about Adam and Eve riding dinosaurs in the Garden of Eden and the world being created in six days, but at least I will give you an 'A' for effort.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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#2264365 25-Jun-2019 18:47

decibel:
tdgeek:

...I see Maria Tuiteia is being looked at by ANZ....

Yes, that will take the heat off their own internal troubles.

It’s a consequence.

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#2264368 25-Jun-2019 18:51

Rikkitic:
This is not about religious freedom. It is about the freedom of someone to express intolerant views that target a specific part of the population. This kind of thing has rightly been made illegal because certain backward types see it as licence to impose their own brand of thuggery on those targeted.

Narrow-minded individuals like Folau use the cloak of religion as justification for branding selected categories of people as inferior and unworthy of respect, opening the way for other thugs to take it upon themselves to inflict harm on such people. This is how the genocide in Rwanda occurred. First the victims were branded as 'cockroaches'. Then it became easier for others to hack them to death with machetes. This is the path that bigoted jerks ultimately want to lead you down.

My point is that if bigoted jerks are going to use selectively quoted texts from the bible as an authority to justify their bigotry, then they ought to at least make an effort to get it right. Forget about the typos of hung over medieval monks and other introduced inaccuracies. Go back to the source texts, learn what they actually mean, not just what you have been told they say, and then deliver your message. I still won't believe you, especially if you start prattling about Adam and Eve riding dinosaurs in the Garden of Eden and the world being created in six days, but at least I will give you an 'A' for effort.

What if he targeted Aborigines or females? As you say, hide behind a cloak and be righteous. The 2019 world sees through that. I see a it as toxic. Watch Maria walk away inside a year

dafman

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#2264370 25-Jun-2019 19:10

surfisup1000:
dafman:
You should really get your facts right.
Firstly, his social media account at the time he made the tweet had as its main banner a photo of him in a Rugby Australia shirt.
Secondly, his tweet did not directly quote the bible. I am so sick of hearing this false statement. The bible does not state anywhere that hell awaits homosexuals, so how can you say his tweet directly quotes the bible?!

I wasn't going to comment further. However, if you want to dispute facts, you should make sure you have yours right first!

Here is a copy of Folaus tweet...

As you can see, the tweet clearly quotes the bible. Nor is Folau wearing a Rugby australia tshirt on the tweet banner.

That particular bible quote says that fornicators (ie, including homosexuals) will not inherit the kingdom of god. In other words, they go to hell. How can you argue otherwise?

You claim...

" The bible does not state anywhere that hell awaits homosexuals"

Please explain this then...

Corinthians 6:9–10
The New King James Version
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Thanks for putting the direct bible quote in. I cannot find "Hell awaits you" anywhere in the quote or the word "Hell" at all.

And it is my understanding that, at the time of tweet, Israel's main Twitter banner picture was him wearing a Rugby Australia shirt, but he has subsequently changed it. I'm happy to be corrected if wrong.

Rikkitic

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#2264372 25-Jun-2019 19:15

To keep things in perspective, I am not against religion as such. Religious tradition, including christianity, has important and meaningful things to say about the human condition. What I take issue with is the cartoon religion of fundamentalism that sucks in ignorant people like Folau and his ilk.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

dafman

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#2264377 25-Jun-2019 19:27

surfisup1000:
tdgeek:

Whats this The New King James Version?

I am doubtful that the Bible uses the modern word homosexuals. Or are some people updating the Bible, with "their new Bible" If so, then the "Bible"
as I know it, an ancient historical document, is being plagiarised for nefarious purposes

Google it, Corinthians 6:9-10

You'll find plenty of varying translations , all of them are consistent.

Dafman is trying to make the claim that the bible is not anti-homosexual. I just couldn't let that slide!

Time to ban the bible maybe?

The bible also says, among other nonsense, that men who rape unmarried woman are obliged to marry them, children that curse their parents should be put to death and fathers are free to sell their daughters into slavery.

Why is it that modern day fundamentalists obsess over references to homosexuality claiming this as literal truth, yet blantently ignore many other, clearly as balmy, commandments?

mm1352000

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#2264418 25-Jun-2019 19:35

dafman:

The bible also says, among other nonsense, that men who rape unmarried woman are obliged to marry them, children that curse their parents should be put to death and fathers are free to sell their daughters into slavery.

Why is it that modern day fundamentalists obsess over references to homosexuality claiming this as literal truth, yet blantently ignore many other, clearly as balmy, commandments?

As I understand it, Christians have different attitudes to the old testament (the source of your examples) when compared to the new testament (the source of Folau's quote). In short: new supercedes old.

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