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sonyxperiageek
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  #2453292 2-Apr-2020 20:10
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If one were to take the credit, there is no guarantee that the credit you have received will be able to get the same value of flights that you had booked earlier, especially if they were on a ridiculously good deal. That would include the status points and airpoint dollars accrual too. It is also unlikely that they will offer discounted fares in the near future due to the situation we are currently facing as well. 





Sony




sbiddle
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  #2453293 2-Apr-2020 20:12
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concordnz:

 

If they are using "future income' to pay 'today's' bills - Perhaps their Directors have been substandard in their duties, by allowing Dividend payments....
Directors have a "Duty of Care" to ensure they are not Insolvent, when declearing Dividends.... 

 

 

Dividend was cancelled.. And they had $1 billion in the bank for a rainy day.

 

So neither apply - this is a situation unlike the world has ever seen.. And they're still going to require more than the $900 million loan they've been given because that's only going to pay the bills for a few months even after massive cost cutting and redundancies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


RunningMan
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  #2453302 2-Apr-2020 20:23
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BlinkyBill:[snip] Have you heard the Prime Minister’s exhortation to bed kind’?

 

BlinkyBill: [snip] Your only option is to make a claim against travel insurance. Oh - you didn’t take out travel insurance, did you.

 

Ahh the irony. Reminding the OP to be kind, then having a sarcastic jab in the same post.




BlinkyBill
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  #2453307 2-Apr-2020 20:33
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Fair enough RunningMan, apologies for that comment.


Scotdownunder
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  #2453308 2-Apr-2020 20:34
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Also ignoring that virtually all travel insurances are refusing payouts due to their pandemic clauses.

 

Question is can I claim a partial refund of the premium on my annual travel insurance which now no longer provides any cover whatsoever ?  Yet to get a reasonable wait time when calling the insurance company to explore this issue.


sbiddle
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  #2453317 2-Apr-2020 20:43
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Scotdownunder:

 

Also ignoring that virtually all travel insurances are refusing payouts due to their pandemic clauses.

 

Question is can I claim a partial refund of the premium on my annual travel insurance which now no longer provides any cover whatsoever ?  Yet to get a reasonable wait time when calling the insurance company to explore this issue.

 

 

That's quite an interesting argument...

 

I guess they'd argue it's no different to not traveling, but in reality it's quite different. I wouldn't try anyway since I'd still be relying on it for any work travel during this time if it was needed particularly for rental car cover.

 

 

 

 


Handle9
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  #2453325 2-Apr-2020 21:00
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concordnz:

 

If they are using "future income' to pay 'today's' bills - Perhaps their Directors have been substandard in their duties, by allowing Dividend payments....
Directors have a "Duty of Care" to ensure they are not Insolvent, when declearing Dividends.... 

 

 

I'm not sure you understand how business cash flows work.

 

Your point about the directors duties is however a good one. If Air New Zealand is entitled to hold the money received under law and the fare conditions then the directors and management would be breaching their fiduciary duty by refunding it.

 

This isn't a moral distinction, this is a survival issue and they need to and should do what is necessary to survive. Some customers will get hurt by this but ultimately the business has a duty to protect its self.


 
 
 

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concordnz

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  #2453340 2-Apr-2020 21:08
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So you think it is fine, to take Customers money (many customers who are going to be left financially 'destitute' - without providing anything?)

 

(because it is 'survival' for the company.....)


dejadeadnz
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  #2453343 2-Apr-2020 21:11
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There's very unlikely to be a CGA claim available as this is not a case where the airline has failed to meet the required guarantees in respect of supply of services. @SirHumphreyAppleby is on the best track so far. The ordinary legal principles that govern such a situation is the legal doctrine of frustration and this has been encapsulated in s 60 of the Contract and Commercial Law Act 2017. The most relevant remedy is s 61(1), which mirrors the common law doctrine of money had and received for cases where one party receives money to perform a contract that now cannot be performed for reasons that are not the fault of either party. Under traditional common law, I'd argue that both parties have been discharged from the contract and the OP is entitled to a refund under the doctrine of frustration but his rights may also be tempered by international instruments like the Montreal Convention, which has the force of domestic law by virtue of the Civil Aviation Act. In some cases, the Convention (as confirmed by High Court precedents) absolutely overrides provisions of the CGA but I don't know enough about aviation law to know whether it does here.

 

If the OP is unhappy, once things open up, take a case to the DT if you don't get a satisfactory outcome from your perspective. At the end of the day, only the judicial systems' opinion count and as presumably the only real lawyer in this thread (taking legal advice from certain characters who have posted in this thread would be most unwise if you are aware of their history and general attitudes towards consumer rights), even I am not 100% sure as to your rights in these rather unique circumstances.

 

Best of luck.

 

Edit: Left out "CGA" in the first sentence.


dejadeadnz
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  #2453347 2-Apr-2020 21:19
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Handle9:

 

I'm not sure you understand how business cash flows work.

 

Your point about the directors duties is however a good one. If Air New Zealand is entitled to hold the money received under law and the fare conditions then the directors and management would be breaching their fiduciary duty by refunding it.

 

This isn't a moral distinction, this is a survival issue and they need to and should do what is necessary to survive. Some customers will get hurt by this but ultimately the business has a duty to protect its self.

 

 

Probably a couple of separate issues here: if a company is legally entitled to hold certain funds but management exercises a legitimate business decision to return the money for reputational and other broadly legitimate reasons, the courts are unlikely to interfere. If a company chooses to refund a sum of money or a class of sums that have a material impact upon its solvency when it is legally entitled to the money and the directors stand idly by and allow this, then I'd say there's very likely a breach of directors' duties. Also, the parties receiving the money will almost certainly be subject to clawback provisions in the Companies Act by the liquidator anyway, in the event the company goes into liquidation.

 

 


concordnz

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  #2453350 2-Apr-2020 21:21
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dejadeadnz:

 

There's very unlikely to be a claim available as this is not a case where the airline has failed to meet the required guarantees in respect of supply of services. @SirHumphreyAppleby is on the best track so far. The ordinary legal principles that govern such a situation is the legal doctrine of frustration and this has been encapsulated in s 60 of the Contract and Commercial Law Act 2017. The most relevant remedy is s 61(1), which mirrors the common law doctrine of money had and received for cases where one party receives money to perform a contract that now cannot be performed for reasons that are not the fault of either party. Under traditional common law, I'd argue that both parties have been discharged from the contract and the OP is entitled to a refund under the doctrine of frustration but his rights may also be tempered by international instruments like the Montreal Convention, which has the force of domestic law by virtue of the Civil Aviation Act. In some cases, the Convention (as confirmed by High Court precedents) absolutely overrides provisions of the CGA but I don't know enough about aviation law to know whether it does here.

 

If the OP is unhappy, once things open up, take a case to the DT if you don't get a satisfactory outcome from your perspective. At the end of the day, only the judicial systems' opinion count and as presumably the only real lawyer in this thread (taking legal advice from certain characters who have posted in this thread would be most unwise if you are aware of their history and general attitudes towards consumer rights), even I am not 100% sure as to your rights in these rather unique circumstances.

 

Best of luck.

 


Thanks dejadeadnz, 
For that reasonably detailed outline, 

Im not interested in wasting time at the DT, 
so it looks like all of us with cancelled flights, are never going to see our money back.
We will just have to consider it lost money, with no services provided.


networkn
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  #2453356 2-Apr-2020 21:28
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Given the Government owes a fairly significant chunk of Air NZ, and it's also our national carrier, I'd suggest it more than a little unlikely your money will vanish. I sympathise with your situation, however.

 

 

 

 


dejadeadnz
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  #2453362 2-Apr-2020 21:32
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Concordnz: Well, the airlines and customers such as yourself (who take a similar position to you) clearly don't agree on what is the correct outcome. And as a RL lawyer has shown to you, what the law requires in this case isn't crystal clear. Unless you want a society where people who disagree with one another just take to  baseball bats, I am not sure why you are so adverse to going to the DT. The filing fee is minimal, you can request to attend by phone, and unless the Referee has been procedurally unfair or the decision is so ridiculously wrong in law that it is liable to be overturned via judicial review at the HC (at the cost of tens of thousands), almost every single DT case ends there and large corp orates abide by them.

 

If you don't want to avail yourself of legitimate recourse society has provided to you, don't moan. It's not immediately obvious that the airline is being unreasonable as the circumstances are unusual and basically without precedent in living memory.

 

Edit: Made clear who I am replying to.


tchart
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  #2453366 2-Apr-2020 21:37
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BlinkyBill:

Handle9:


Travel insurance generally doesn't cover pandemics.



I think Air NZ travel insurance covers cancellation for any reason. There may be a pandemic exception - I don’t recall. There are a number of popular travel insurance schemes that, prior to the current pandemic, covered pandemics and are paying out.


Irrespectively, I think the OP is being unreasonable in the circumstances.



Nope even Air NZ travel insurance doesn't cover pandemics.

I had two sets of travel insurance prior to my scheduled flight to the US on 10th March. Neither would pay for anything pandemic related (and yes one was Air NZ travel insurance).

Handle9
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  #2453368 2-Apr-2020 21:38
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concordnz:

 

So you think it is fine, to take Customers money (many customers who are going to be left financially 'destitute' - without providing anything?)

 

(because it is 'survival' for the company.....)

 

 

Is anything about the current situation "fine"? It sucks all round.

 

If Air NZ become insolvent and another 7000 people lose their job with no redundancy? If secured creditors don't get paid? Is that "fine"?

 

It's a horrid situation and that is why the law exists. To balance the interests of consumers, shareholders and employees.

 

They are not keeping your money without compensation, they are offering future travel. It's then your choice whether to use it. 

 

I am in a similar situation (around NZD$7k of flights) and it is what it is.


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