Whenuapai airport - Domestic flights

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#2313242 8-Sep-2019 21:00

sbiddle:

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Regardless of this they will get beaten up by public opinion when they announce redundancies.

I'm not quite sure where these redundancies you refer to would come from. They already run a very lean operation, particularly with offshoring heavy maintenance.

It's pretty well publicised that they have engaged Oliver Wyman as cost reduction consultants. They don't generally get brought on to add to head count.

https://www.consultancy.com.au/news/974/air-new-zealand-flies-in-oliver-wyman-for-cost-cutting-review

Once again to be clear this is speculation on my part. I could well be totally wrong.

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#2313250 8-Sep-2019 21:23

GV27:

At least people who work out there would be commuting each day. I'm prepared to wager that passengers coming from north of the harbour bridge make up a tiny portion of the traffic going across the bridge, and I'm not sure why we should reconfigure the entire North Western quarter for their benefit.

I'd wager significantly more people from north of the harbour bridge fly out of the airport each day than those that live north and work at the airport.

I don't have time tonight to find complete population statistics but at a rough guess I'd say at least 20% of the population of the Auckland area would live/work within the capture area of Whenuapai. That's 300,000 people plus those in the neighbouring areas. 300,000 is about 50% more than the population of Hamilton city, 75% of Christchurch's population, nearly double Dunedin's and Tauranga's population. All of these places have a significant number of passengers fly in and out each day. It's not hard to deduce there would be similar ratio of numbers who would use Whenuapai if it were an option.

I don't see how this proposal to use Whenuapai will require a reconfiguration of the entire North Western quarter. I think your over estimating the impact and not acknowledging the benefits it brings in other areas.

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#2313252 8-Sep-2019 21:30

elpenguino:

I agree. Whenupai has ILS and presumably could take a domestic emergency landing if it really had to. Ardmore is much shorter at 1400m and isn't equipped with ILS AFAIK

Whenuapai's runway length is only 2000m which is why internationals are diverted to chch or Ohakea.

The airforce also have some activities at Whenuapai that might not mix with commercial aviation like parachute school and i think the secret squirrels go there to play with their toys too.

Yup. I hope we don't end up in a situation where the choice is either develop Whenuapai for housing or turn it into a commercial airport. We really need a separate facility outside the AVF for basic infrastructure resilience. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean an eruption won't ever happen.

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#2313262 8-Sep-2019 21:46

This not just about reducing the traffic on the harbour bridge and other places. It is also about reducing significantly the travel times of airline customers getting to and from the airport.and providing a better service for your customers by delivering them closer to their final destination.

If I was running an airline and wanted to expand without taking Air New Zealand on head on I'd be looking for an airport in the Auckland area like Whenuapai to operate to/from. In my opinion there would be a very worthwhile market for a service like this.

If I was Air New Zealand I'd be concerned another airline would go to the likes of Whenuapai and canabalise my market, therefore I need to be doing it first.

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Jase2985

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#2313340 9-Sep-2019 05:19

Technofreak:

I'd wager significantly more people from north of the harbour bridge fly out of the airport each day than those that live north and work at the airport.

30,000 people work at the airport and the surrounding areas (thats airport oaks and those just off SH20A)

i cant see there being that many from the shore each day.

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#2313349 9-Sep-2019 06:52

Technofreak:

I'd wager significantly more people from north of the harbour bridge fly out of the airport each day than those that live north and work at the airport.

I don't have time tonight to find complete population statistics but at a rough guess I'd say at least 20% of the population of the Auckland area would live/work within the capture area of Whenuapai. That's 300,000 people plus those in the neighbouring areas. 300,000 is about 50% more than the population of Hamilton city, 75% of Christchurch's population, nearly double Dunedin's and Tauranga's population. All of these places have a significant number of passengers fly in and out each day. It's not hard to deduce there would be similar ratio of numbers who would use Whenuapai if it were an option.

I don't see how this proposal to use Whenuapai will require a reconfiguration of the entire North Western quarter. I think your over estimating the impact and not acknowledging the benefits it brings in other areas.

I drive those roads every day. I know what the current levels of congestion are. I'm not certain it has any benefits at all. The North Shore is very good at insisting their needs be met above all others; see endless complaining about rail despite being the only region to have busway and ferry services.

The North Western quarter is currently taking on a huge swathe of the region's new housing development. I can see popping down a new international airport being a bit more complicated than it is in Sim City.

The idea that it will bring 'jobs to the area' mostly seems to assume the logistics industry would duplicate their warehousing and all associated overheads rather than just send a truck up the road... you know, through the Waterview Connection, that already offers a direct connection from the North West to the airport we already have.

If the North Shore really needs an airport that badly, develop the one at Dairy Flat.

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#2313368 9-Sep-2019 08:09

Technofreak:

This not just about reducing the traffic on the harbour bridge and other places. It is also about reducing significantly the travel times of airline customers getting to and from the airport.and providing a better service for your customers by delivering them closer to their final destination.

If I was running an airline and wanted to expand without taking Air New Zealand on head on I'd be looking for an airport in the Auckland area like Whenuapai to operate to/from. In my opinion there would be a very worthwhile market for a service like this.

If I was Air New Zealand I'd be concerned another airline would go to the likes of Whenuapai and canabalise my market, therefore I need to be doing it first.

I'm still struggling to see where you think the choice for passengers will come from...as you keep saying that the airport at Whenuapai would reduce the numbers going to and from the current airport and would be convenient for taking those from the Shore and West to their destinations...are you assuming that the current airlines will simply double the number of flights so everyone gets to tick "Mangere" or Whenuapai" on their booking?

And if you're worried about congestion on the North/South roading, which currently services the airport, where do you think a lot of the people who will use the new airport will come from? Especially if yu are assuming that a low-cost airline would use the Northwest as its base? I'd say they'll come from all over Auckland - with the largest density of population being south of the bridge.

And people stating that it's NIMBYism to say that they don't want commercial aircraft flying out of a barely used Airbase is laughable. The effect on the well-being of people that did NOT buy next to a domestic airport, but happen to live in a zone that was never previously but would then become a flightpath for noisy, smelly, low-flying aircraft would be very real...nd not just from a real estate point of view...

The sheer number of people that will oppose this due to being hugely negatively affected by this will be overwhelming

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#2313407 9-Sep-2019 09:17

Technofreak:

It stands to reason that the passengers going to Whenuapai will not be travelling across the harbour bridge into the city so reducing the traffic on the harbour bridge and the southern motorway network.

Also at peak hours Auckland airport runway is at or above capacity, a reduction in traffic flow would help there too.

It doesn't stand to reason at all. Are you saying that Whenuapai would be an airport for just the North Shore and West Auckland? I don't see the demand. Particularly since all the regional flights would still have to go to Mangere for anyone connecting to an overseas flight.

Mangere's second runway is expected to be operational in 2028. So any move to Whenuapai based on Mangere currently being at capacity would only be valid for 9 years.

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#2313433 9-Sep-2019 10:15

I don't know where some people have got the idea that the proposal to use Whenuapai involves international flights or that there will be any freight operations involved. Neither of these apply.

So far as extra jobs go, all I see is a few extra job for checkin and baggage handling. No different to what is at the likes of Hamilton, Tauranga Rotorua etc.

I seem to remember the figure of 20 flights per day being mentioned. That means probably two return flights per destination that would get flights to Whenuapai. Certainly not large numbers. There would be a corresponding reduction in the flights to Auckland. Customers would book Whenuapai as a destination just like they book any other destination, no need to choose between Auckland or Whenuapai when they book their ticket.

It's my guess Air New Zealand already knows the demographics of their passengers as to where they want to go to and from within the Auckland area. Assuming so, they will know how many of their customers would benefit from using Wenuapai. It's my bet Air New Zealand already have a very good idea what loads to expect on flights to/from Whenuapai should they eventuate.

Whenuapai may seem like low utilisation airport now, however to make an assumption that will alway be the case is a very naive way to choose where to live. Unfortunately developers care very little about such things and will happily take your money and downplay any impact an airport may have on your lifestyle. Buyer beware. I sorry but I have no sympathy for people buying a home near an active airport and then complaining about the noise.

I know my view is different from some on here, but the arguments I've been reading on this thread against this proposal are either not valid in my opinion or are coming from a NIMBY perspective. Please don't get offended by the NIMBY label, it's not my backyard and I might have a different view point if it was. However since it isn't my backyard hopefully I have a more balance view of this proposal.

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tripper1000

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#2313440 9-Sep-2019 10:30

Whenuapai's crosswind runway was upgraded in 2011, an the main runway was replaced last year. The main apron was replaced this year. Runway wise, it is effectively brand new. It has 2 runways giving it a cross-wind advantage over Auckland for smaller planes.

It is presently being built out with housing right on the perimeter fence. Now is the time to do some proper city planning and plan for a sensible future.

Auckland Airport Co is a monopoly and got in trouble with the ComCom for overcharging ANZ (and other airlines) last year.

It costs many $1,000's per day just to have an aircraft parked at Auckland, plus you have thousands in landing fees. Economically speaking it is perfectly viable for ANZ to offer some flights out other Auckland locations, and customers will appreciate the choice.

Furthermore Auckland Airport Co keeps demanding the motorway (SH20) get extended to it's front door at great cost to the tax payer - Whenuapai sits at the intersection of SH16's and SH18's so has 2 motorways to it's front door.

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#2313446 9-Sep-2019 10:38

Technofreak:

I don't know where some people have got the idea that the proposal to use Whenuapai involves international flights or that there will be any freight operations involved. Neither of these apply.

So far as extra jobs go, all I see is a few extra job for checkin and baggage handling. No different to what is at the likes of Hamilton, Tauranga Rotorua etc.

I seem to remember the figure of 20 flights per day being mentioned. That means probably two return flights per destination that would get flights to Whenuapai. Certainly not large numbers. There would be a corresponding reduction in the flights to Auckland. Customers would book Whenuapai as a destination just like they book any other destination, no need to choose between Auckland or Whenuapai when they book their ticket.

It's my guess Air New Zealand already knows the demographics of their passengers as to where they want to go to and from within the Auckland area. Assuming so, they will know how many of their customers would benefit from using Wenuapai. It's my bet Air New Zealand already have a very good idea what loads to expect on flights to/from Whenuapai should they eventuate.

Whenuapai may seem like low utilisation airport now, however to make an assumption that will alway be the case is a very naive way to choose where to live. Unfortunately developers care very little about such things and will happily take your money and downplay any impact an airport may have on your lifestyle. Buyer beware. I sorry but I have no sympathy for people buying a home near an active airport and then complaining about the noise.

I know my view is different from some on here, but the arguments I've been reading on this thread against this proposal are either not valid in my opinion or are coming from a NIMBY perspective. Please don't get offended by the NIMBY label, it's not my backyard and I might have a different view point if it was. However since it isn't my backyard hopefully I have a more balance view of this proposal.

I still fail to understand your logic re the destination and the choice for passengers...we only have 1.4M people in Auckland...we are NOT a large metropolis that would require multiple flights to the two airports - i.e. DUN-AKL or DUN-WHE...it just doesn't make any sense.

And the NIMBY argument also doesn't stack up - your view isn't more balanced. It appears more callous and uncaring for those that didn;t buy next to an active airport - I live on the North Shore and am in what would be the proposed flightpath of commercial aircraft...the few Airforce planes and helicopters that do fly overhead don;t bother me...I knew there was an active AIRBASE near (10km away) my home, but not an AIRPORT - there is a definite difference.

Also - the intense housing developments that have gone in right next to Whenuapai, in Hobsonville, Whenua [ai and the surrounding area are already creating an issue with the roading and infrastructure. What do you think increased traffic on top if the already planned increased traffic will do to the area? GRIDLOCK.

A new airport would need to be somewhere in a less densely populated area, with easy-to-improve infrastructure and a straight-line traffic route. That's not Whenuapai.

I also fail to see how Auckland could possibly NEED another airport - there's a perfectly good one where it is and it's got resource consent to increase size and capacity - and before you say it...people buying or renting in Mangere/Manuakau/Papatoetoe etc all know there's a large and busy international airport there...flightpaths have been long established and you'd have to be pretty thick to not notice it if you're looking to buy or rent there.

It's been there, in operation since 1966...that's 53 years. It's where all the freight companies are. It's an industrial and transport hub. All it needs is decent public transport, like the Northern Busway or the southern line trains and you'd have a great forward-looking piece of infrastructure for a growing population.

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#2313611 9-Sep-2019 15:09

Handsomedan:

I still fail to understand your logic re the destination and the choice for passengers...we only have 1.4M people in Auckland...we are NOT a large metropolis that would require multiple flights to the two airports - i.e. DUN-AKL or DUN-WHE...it just doesn't make any sense.

I already covered this argument on page two of this thread. I've copied my response here:

Yes population is a good argument as to why two airports are not needed in Auckland.

However there are two very good counter arguments to the population argument.

The geographical layout of Auckland. The fact it is spread out over a long narrow isthmus where all the surface transport has to be funnelled down a narrow corridor.
New Zealand has the highest degree of airline transport per head of population of anywhere in the world. No where else in the developed world has the level of flights between centres that we do here per head of population. There again this is due to our topography, locations of our population centres plus the lack of good rapid surface transport.

Handsomedan:And the NIMBY argument also doesn't stack up - your view isn't more balanced. It appears more callous and uncaring for those that didn;t buy next to an active airport - I live on the North Shore and am in what would be the proposed flightpath of commercial aircraft...the few Airforce planes and helicopters that do fly overhead don;t bother me...I knew there was an active AIRBASE near (10km away) my home, but not an AIRPORT - there is a definite difference.

I don't see there's any difference between an airbase and an airport. They both involve the movement of aircraft civil or military. How would you feel if the RNZAF decided to move 14 or 42 Squadrons from Ohakea to Whenuapai? As an active airbase that could happen and have a similar impact, probably worse as they will operate day and night and the proposed domestic flights will be primarily day time only.

I presume from what you have said you'd be OK with that, because it is only traffic generated by an active airbase.

Handsomedan:Also - the intense housing developments that have gone in right next to Whenuapai, in Hobsonville, Whenua [ai and the surrounding area are already creating an issue with the roading and infrastructure. What do you think increased traffic on top if the already planned increased traffic will do to the area? GRIDLOCK.

I don't see the number of people that will be flying to/from will have a big impact. Id suggest a large proportion of these people would have been travelling in that area going to and from work only in this case they are going to and from the airport.

The big impact/gain will be passengers going to and from the northern suburbs will not have to battle the traffic on the way to Mangere.

Handsomedan:A new airport would need to be somewhere in a less densely populated area, with easy-to-improve infrastructure and a straight-line traffic route. That's not Whenuapai.

So where would you propose this place be and how much would it cost for the infrastructure?

Handsomedan:I also fail to see how Auckland could possibly NEED another airport - there's a perfectly good one where it is and it's got resource consent to increase size and capacity - and before you say it...people buying or renting in Mangere/Manuakau/Papatoetoe etc all know there's a large and busy international airport there...flightpaths have been long established and you'd have to be pretty thick to not notice it if you're looking to buy or rent there.

See my response above re need for another airport.

Handsomedan:It's been there, in operation since 1966...that's 53 years. It's where all the freight companies are. It's an industrial and transport hub. All it needs is decent public transport, like the Northern Busway or the southern line trains and you'd have a great forward-looking piece of infrastructure for a growing population.

Freight has nothing to do with this proposal, domestic passenger aircraft don't carry freight with the very odd exception. There is no need to duplicate and industrial and transport hubs.

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#2313615 9-Sep-2019 15:20

frankv:

It doesn't stand to reason at all. Are you saying that Whenuapai would be an airport for just the North Shore and West Auckland? I don't see the demand. Particularly since all the regional flights would still have to go to Mangere for anyone connecting to an overseas flight.

Mangere's second runway is expected to be operational in 2028. So any move to Whenuapai based on Mangere currently being at capacity would only be valid for 9 years.

You might not see the demand but if places like Tauranga with a population nearly 1/3 of the North Shore and West Auckland area can sustain flights to Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch I feel sure the the northern suburbs of Auckland could sustain flights out of Whenuapai to several destinations.

Mangere's second runway. I remember seeing a 3D model of Auckland airport about 30 years ago showing the new runway that was about to be developed. They finally started work on it about 12 years ago then promptly stopped work. I'll believe it's actually happening when they start laying the asphalt for the runways and taxiways. That aside the congestion at Auckland is only one small reason supporting the use of Whenuapai, there are many bigger/better reasons

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GV27

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#2313617 9-Sep-2019 15:22

tripper1000:

Furthermore Auckland Airport Co keeps demanding the motorway (SH20) get extended to it's front door at great cost to the tax payer - Whenuapai sits at the intersection of SH16's and SH18's so has 2 motorways to it's front door.

Those motorways are already logjammed by commuters, a total lack of rapid transit and tens of thousands of new houses being built in the area; there's almost no other part of Auckland taking on the same new housing burden as the North West quarter.

But sure, let's throw airport traffic into the mix and expect it to just magically work.

If you think this is anything other than a strong-arming tactic from Air NZ to get better treatment from AIAL then I've got a second harbour bridge with heavy rail and traffic 300 lanes to sell you.

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#2313618 9-Sep-2019 15:24

Technofreak:

I seem to remember the figure of 20 flights per day being mentioned.

So all these millions are to be invested for 2000 people per day?

Can't see it happening on economic grounds alone TBH, let alone convincing the airforce to share their sandpit.

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