The NZ Herald Gay Marriage Poll discussion

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#788125 27-Mar-2013 17:22

Im not sure why people think that because gays can get married, they'd automatically want to get married in a church run my some bigoted paster or whatever. I wouldnt step foot in a place that preaches hate, none of my friends would either, gay or straight.

mm1352000

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#788131 27-Mar-2013 17:39

tardtasticx: Im not sure why people think that because gays can get married, they'd automatically want to get married in a church...

Who suggested that?
I don't think it is implied from the above comment.

...run my some bigoted paster or whatever. I wouldnt step foot in a place that preaches hate, none of my friends would either, gay or straight.

Nor would most reasonable people. However if you're saying that a pastor who refuses to marry gay people for any reason including moral grounds is a bigot by definition then I'd have to disagree.

da5id

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#788135 27-Mar-2013 17:44

NZtechfreak: I'm still not seeing anyone address the fact that the Christian views being represented here are by no means universal, or that Christians have presumed all throughout history to change the bible and what they believe and that I'm not seeing any particular reason that marriage is inviolable where other things were not?

Well, also no one has pointed out that many gays don't agree with gay marriage either. One example is in France recently where over 1 million people marched against gay marriage, including homosexuals.

NEW YORK, January 18 (C-FAM) Perhaps as many as a million people marched in Paris last Sunday and at French embassies around the world against proposed legislation that would legalize same-sex marriage in France. One of the surprises in the French campaign for traditional marriage is that homosexuals have joined pro-family leaders and activists in the effort. “The rights of children trump the right to children,” was the catchphrase of protesters like Jean Marc, a French mayor who is also homosexual.

Xavier Bongibault, an atheist homosexual, is a prominent spokesman against the bill. “In France, marriage is not designed to protect the love between two people. French marriage is specifically designed to provide children with families,” he said in an interview. “[T]he most serious study done so far . . . demonstrates quite clearly that a child has trouble being raised by gay parents.”

Jean Marc, who has lived with a man for 20 years, insists, “The LGBT movement that speaks out in the media . . . They don’t speak for me. As a society we should not be encouraging this. It’s not biologically natural.”

Outraged by the bill, 66-year old Jean-Dominique Bunel, a specialist in humanitarian law who has done relief work in war-torn areas, told Le Figaro he “was raised by two women” and that he “suffered from the lack of a father, a daily presence, a character and a properly masculine example, some counterweight to the relationship of my mother to her lover. I was aware of it at a very early age. I lived that absence of a father, experienced it, as an amputation."

"As soon as I learned that the government was going to officialize marriage between two people of the same sex, I was thrown into disarray,” he explained. It would be “institutionalizing a situation that had scarred me considerably. In that there is an injustice that I can in no way allow." If the women who raised him had been married, “I would have jumped into the fray and would have brought a complaint before the French state and before the European Court of Human Rights, for the violation of my right to a mom and a dad."

To add to this, many gays just don't care about marriage. This from the The Press regarding gays in Christchurch -

Gay and lesbian marriage may be a hot topic in Parliament, but "the average gay guy couldn't give a toss about it", a stalwart of Christchurch's gay community says.

Aprivate member's bill to allow same-sex couples to marry was today drawn from a ballot and will be debated by Parliament, potentially as early as next month.

The bill, led by Labour MP Louisa Wall, is likely to be subject to a conscience vote but will have the support of Labour leader David Shearer and all Green Party MPs.

Bruce Williamson, who has run gay nightclubs in Christchurch since the early 1980s, was "not even remotely interested in the issue".

"The average gay guy couldn't care less about anything that resembles the institution of conventional heterosexual marriage," he said.

"It has no relevance to their lives. The majority couldn't give a toss about it and I have no idea why people are obsessing over it."

The drawing of the bill was a "non-event" for Williamson, and he said many people in the gay and lesbian community were asking "why we are discussing it" via online blogs and forums.

He believed the controversial issue was "being driven by only a few people who enjoy a good bandwagon to climb on", but the issue of same-sex marriages was not a "common topic of conversation" in Christchurch's gay community.

"I don't need validity of any relationship I am in, and in my experience others feel the same way. People couldn't care less about it," he said.

ajobbins

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#788147 27-Mar-2013 17:57

da5id: Well, also no one has pointed out that many gays don't agree with gay marriage either. One example is in France recently where over 1 million people marched against gay marriage, including homosexuals.

Sure, some wont care. And some wont want it. But I think you will find most support it. Certainly from what I have seen.

I'm sure there were also women who didn't feel they needed the vote.

Don't recall of hearing of any select committee submissions against the bill from gay people.

In any case, just because some don't want it, doesn't mean none of them should have it. It's still a choice.

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John2010

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#788173 27-Mar-2013 18:37

networkn:
John2010:
NZtechfreak: It fascinates me to see several posts to the effect that somehow gay people are "Usurping the rights of others", or that gay people being accorded a right somehow impugns anothers equivalent right.

Interesting that so many appear to believe that there are some rights that should be reserved for some people and not others.

The rights of concern for protection or the giving of equality are here the rights of a relationship. Speaking for myself I have made it very clear that I have no objection to those being the same whatsoever (and as I see it, that view not being through a red haze of anger, I don't see many others here objecting to those either).

It is the usage of the word "marriage" which I am saying has a pre-existing meaning (being between a man and a woman) that many believe is a right. I do not see that it is of any harm at all that it be protected for them.

As another example - Usage of the word Maori (or that of any other ethnic group) is a right that Maori (or the those of another particular ethnic group) have, we should not decide that everyone should have the right to be called Maori (i.e. "usurp its usage) in the interests of equal rights. It is a right that most consider that Maori (or another ethnic group) have and are entitled to keep for themselves. It is not taking away the rights of others - they have a right to the name of their own ethnic group and there is no sensible movement to make them share that.

So, if a name was created (by homosexuals, just as they created the name "gay" for themselves) that described a relationship that delivered the same rights to them as marriage does to heterosexuals, then they would have a right to that (which right heterosexuals would not have). That could be delivered into law.

But, I am afraid that the difficulty will come mostly from the homosexuals themselves in that they claim that the pre-existing definition of "marriage" must be expunged, just as they claim that now they are called gays that all pre-existing uses of the word gay must now be expunged ( and indeed they abuse publically people who do not do so)

I love reading what you write, this is a great way to have described the issue for many of us that describe marriage as between a man and woman and for whom they want this to remain. It's why we label things, so we know they are different. (And before I get jumped all over, being different isn't automatically wrong, or right)

Given the propensity that you and I have for misunderstanding or disagreeing with each other, in this instance I must be running a sound case

.

Fortunately, I am now away trav'lin and to be busy workin' for a while so I won't have time to take much notice of the arrogance and disrespect to the views of others that some of the gays and their agents express on threads like this.

For myself, I have to keep reminding myself that I should not let their views, closed as they are against the rights and views of others, and polished with wild assumptions about the religious beliefs of those who have an alternative view or going for the wild "you are anti gay" claim, to colour my opinion of gays in general.

ajobbins

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#788178 27-Mar-2013 18:46

^ must be opposites day

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tardtasticx

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#788264 27-Mar-2013 22:00

And there we go. 1 step closer to the gays redefining that special word. One step closer to a better country. Very proud day to be a New Zealander, like it is every day of course (usually)!

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networkn

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#788277 27-Mar-2013 22:17

tardtasticx: Im not sure why people think that because gays can get married, they'd automatically want to get married in a church run my some bigoted paster or whatever. I wouldnt step foot in a place that preaches hate, none of my friends would either, gay or straight.

Your opinions and the extreme nature in which you present them is similar in nature I find, to those you rail against. Not everyone who doesn't agree with gay marriage is a bigot, nor does everyone who doesn't agree with gay marriage hate or mistreat gay people. I feel you are overly sensitive on the issue and pretty prickly but the causes of those aren't directly (I don't think) related to this discussion. I would hazard a guess as to the possible reasons for it, but I am unsure as to whether it would breach the FUG nor would I want to be wrong and potentially offend you.

networkn

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#788279 27-Mar-2013 22:20

Given the propensity that you and I have for misunderstanding or disagreeing with each other, in this instance I must be running a sound case .

Wow I didn't think we disagreed THAT much :)

Even if on the opposite side of a discussion from you, I do find on the whole your arguments reasoned and well thought out.

jonathan18

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#788317 27-Mar-2013 23:29

Klipspringer:

I teach my children that being gay is wrong.
...

Not supporting gay marriage does not mean Im not accepting.

???

Here's hoping none of your children happen to be gay, for their sake - I can't imagine how difficult such a situation would be for them. Or perhaps you're of the school of thought that believes people "choose" to be gay?

Klipspringer

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#788378 28-Mar-2013 08:36

jonathan18:
Here's hoping none of your children happen to be gay, for their sake - I can't imagine how difficult such a situation would be for them. Or perhaps you're of the school of thought that believes people "choose" to be gay?

But it is wrong as per my religion.

Are you saying I should teach my children against my religion?

And yes I believe people choose to be gay. Sure not all of them but the absolute majority of them.

In my opinion the way I see it is that gay thoughts could be switched off just like any other sinfull thoughts.

Its like being married. I can choose to have sexual impure thoughts about other women while I am married. I can choose to switch those thoughts off. Everybody has them and I don’t care how faithful people are. We all at some time will have impure thoughts about someone else and will be tested I suppose, if we in a relationship or not. The morality comes into effect on how we act on these thoughts.

I can choose to act on those thoughts and have an affair. Or I can choose to stay faithful to my wife.

I can choose to have gay thoughts while I am married to my wife. I can choose to have a gay relationship too. Or I can choose to switch these thoughts off. I switch off all impure thoughts as I plan on living happily ever after with my wife. Being married is all about commitment, its not about sexual urges or thinking with one’s other head. We can control our thoughts and urges just as much as we can control ourselves against other things we should not be doing.

Probably will get shot downs for this post. I don't care! But thats my view on the whole thing.

So yes. I believe people "choose" to be gay. Life is all about choice and the way we end up is normally due to the choices we have taken in our lives.

tardtasticx:
And why do you think that children want to know about hetrosexual relations then? I hated sitting through that class, watching a lady give birth (DVD) was horrible, and not once was I told about any other form of sex than procreation. Our teacher was a christian, and I still remember him saying "I'm not gonna talk about a*** because I believe its for things going out, not going in". End of discussion. I had to learn how to be safe from friends and organisations like Love Your Condom. If you're looking for someone to blame for high disease rates and HIV etc. Blame bigoted people who prevent us from being educated properly. Thats like cutting your neighbours water main and then complaining that they dont water their garden.

Now excuse me I have to go hand out my gay fliers to the school children, they get out of school soon. Toodles.

I find your post really facinating.

And strangely enough even though I am far from gay I have no problem with seeing the male body parts. I find it odd that you would find something as fascinating as childbirth horrible. Its nature, its beautiful. The male body does not disgust me at all.

Childbirth is childbirth if you gay or not. Children come from women. You were watching the birth of a child. You were not watching sex. I am so confused as to why this was horrible to you.

PS: about those fliers. Can you put one up here so we can see. Im really keen to see whats in them.

zANavAShi

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#788439 28-Mar-2013 10:11

NZtechfreak: ....its just that several of the viewpoints put forward here as Christian viewpoints have ultimately amounted more or less to "because God said so, because the bible says so", but my point is that you can debate that also. I note now that some of those views have been offered in the spirit of devils advocacy, but not all of them.

To any Christians here unaware of the history of revisions to the bible, that would make for great bedtime reading for you :)

...and I highly recommend any book/essay/debate/interview by biblical scholar Bart Ehrman as a very good place to start.

tardtasticx

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#788494 28-Mar-2013 11:53

tardtasticx:
...

I find your post really facinating.

And strangely enough even though I am far from gay I have no problem with seeing the male body parts. I find it odd that you would find something as fascinating as childbirth horrible. Its nature, its beautiful. The male body does not disgust me at all.

Childbirth is childbirth if you gay or not. Children come from women. You were watching the birth of a child. You were not watching sex. I am so confused as to why this was horrible to you.

PS: about those fliers. Can you put one up here so we can see. Im really keen to see whats in them.

It wasn't the child birth idea that was horrible, children are great and creating a new life must be amazing for those involved, but we sat there watching a video where the camera was pointed right in between her legs, we couldnt see anything else BUT the lady flower and all its glory spilling blood and baby stuff out. Oh, and hearing her scream was pretty horrible too, it was the graphic nature of the video more than anything. I'm pretty sure most people would be put off by that.
If it was important for me to see exactly where babies come from and what happens, then why was the idea of teaching homosexuality (as facts) in school even worse? Its not like they're going to be showing hardcore gay pornography, people need to learn whats in the world around them.

edit: I'm not repulsed by the female body either. And about the fliers, I'll ask the marketing team if want it up here.

MaxLV

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#788503 28-Mar-2013 12:07

jayveeee:
ajw: This recent letter to Auckland MP Nikki Kay somes up my feelings on the matter.

blah blah ...more anti-gay propaganda!

Just like pro-gay propaganda.

MaxLV

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#788514 28-Mar-2013 12:20

tardtasticx: Im not sure why people think that because gays can get married, they'd automatically want to get married in a church run my some bigoted paster or whatever. I wouldnt step foot in a place that preaches hate, none of my friends would either, gay or straight.

So you're saying that because someone, or any organisation of people dont hold the views you do they're bigoted and preach hate?

IOW no one should be allowed to hold view that you disagree with. Who are you saying is bigoted again?

Disclaimer: I am NOT christian (dont believe in or support any religious beliefs) but fully support the law change to allow gay marriage.

What I DONT support is your bigoted arguments against those who disagree with your hateful views, arguments and denial of other peoples right to have opinions different from yours.

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