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#2342011 22-Oct-2019 19:13

GV27:

Dingbatt:

Disruptive transport technologies will render trains on fixed tracks obsolete. I still believe that light rail is using yesterday’s solution, to solve today’s problem, tomorrow.

The congestion is there today.

"Wait for AI/Wait for trackless trams/Wait for self-driving cars" is techbro speak for "I don't want to have to pay taxes to fund something because talking about is cheaper and it doesn't affect me personally".

It's funny how solving the problem involves doing nothing to improve the lives of those living in the poorest, most rapidly-intensifying areas who don't happen to have the sort of white-collar jobs that can be done with telecommuting.

It's really their fault for being poor.

You quoted me, but did you even read it? My point is not to do nothing, but try and be smart about it. Why some sort of rapid transit corridor wasn’t included with the upgrade of the Northwestern Motorway (8 years and counting) still perplexes me.

The fact it will take ten years to achieve, even if the go button was pressed today, means the solution is many, many tomorrows away. And what will the city look like by then? I look at the success of the North Shore busway (parking woes aside) and wonder if fixed tracks are the best solution.

Please tell me how a light rail line from the cbd through Mt Roskill to the airport will benefit people living in ‘poorer’ areas who are working multiple jobs to just try and make ends meet. I’d hazard a guess that anyone that can afford to live along the first bit of that line would not be considered poor. But then no one jumped on the SJ bandwagon until now by suggesting anything else is “anti poor”.

I’d love to know how many of the jobs in downtown Auckland actually need to be in central Auckland as well.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

floydbloke

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#2342035 22-Oct-2019 19:58

Dingbatt:

sir1963:

I understand the Hoover dam was built ahead of schedule and below cost.

Im sure if the Waterview Tunnel had been built under similar circumstances to the Hoover Dam, ie no consenting process and no objections under the public works framework, almost zero health and safety measures, and virtual slave labour conditions due to the Great Depression, it probably would have been early and on budget as well.

...

Indeed

Waterview tunnel construction fatalities: 0 (1 serious injury if I recall coorectly)

Hoover Dam construction facilities: 96

Did Eric Clapton really think she looked wonderful...or was it after the 15th outfit she tried on and he just wanted to get to the party and get a drink?

Fred99

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#2342306 23-Oct-2019 09:54

Dingbatt:

Please tell me how a light rail line from the cbd through Mt Roskill to the airport will benefit people living in ‘poorer’ areas who are working multiple jobs to just try and make ends meet.

Because their elected and unelected rulers won't be so grumpy from commuting to the airport, on trips to Wellington, junkets to conferences around the world, and family holidays, travelling to/from the airport during peak traffic because they don't want to catch redeye specials or get home on late flights.

They put in an airport rail to CBD link in Sydney - which has worse traffic congestion than AKL South of the CBD to Botany. I assume that fares are based on cost recovery for the project - not inflated to crazy levels to boost the coffers of the state government. IIRC the fare is $20 per person each way. Would be an expensive daily commute.

MikeB4

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#2342318 23-Oct-2019 10:04

@Fred99 off topic excursion follows, apologies to all....

I recently took the train from Sydney Airport to Circular Quay. It was great, no hassles except for the grand canyon gap between the platform to the train which caught the front wheels of my chair twice. Luckily a local helped out. It's a stressless trip which cost $A17 each. The local said there are discounts for them. The train was clean roomy and the stations well sign posted and the announcements made sense. I can't remember how long it took but it was less than 1/2 and hour. I would love to see these in NZ.

sir1963

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#2342319 23-Oct-2019 10:05

Fred99:

Dingbatt:

Please tell me how a light rail line from the cbd through Mt Roskill to the airport will benefit people living in ‘poorer’ areas who are working multiple jobs to just try and make ends meet.

Because their elected and unelected rulers won't be so grumpy from commuting to the airport, on trips to Wellington, junkets to conferences around the world, and family holidays, travelling to/from the airport during peak traffic because they don't want to catch redeye specials or get home on late flights.

They put in an airport rail to CBD link in Sydney - which has worse traffic congestion than AKL South of the CBD to Botany. I assume that fares are based on cost recovery for the project - not inflated to crazy levels to boost the coffers of the state government. IIRC the fare is $20 per person each way. Would be an expensive daily commute.

I have always chosen busses in Sydney to get to/from the airport. They are MUCH cheaper and they pick you up from your hotel door.

London, Paris, Rome, I always use the rail to the airport.

networkn

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#2342322 23-Oct-2019 10:07

I'd heavily favour trains. I think we could solve a lot of issues by having rail North Shore to Airport and believe it should be planned and executed as quickly as possible. I don't think trams are nearly as effective.

Fred99

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#2342365 23-Oct-2019 10:41

MikeB4:

@Fred99 off topic excursion follows, apologies to all....

I recently took the train from Sydney Airport to Circular Quay. It was great, no hassles except for the grand canyon gap between the platform to the train which caught the front wheels of my chair twice. Luckily a local helped out. It's a stressless trip which cost $A17 each. The local said there are discounts for them. The train was clean roomy and the stations well sign posted and the announcements made sense. I can't remember how long it took but it was less than 1/2 and hour. I would love to see these in NZ.

I just checked, the fare should be $19.40, there would be a dollar or two discount with an Opal card.

Last time I used public transport from near the centre, there were three of us, we'd have had to catch a bus to the CBD then the rail, it would have cost us north of $60, a taxi cost just over $40 and delivered us to the terminal doors in quicker time that the bus/rail could have. In peak hour it would have been different, but outside of that the trains have limited advantage.

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MikeB4

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#2342368 23-Oct-2019 10:50

Fred99:

MikeB4:

@Fred99 off topic excursion follows, apologies to all....

I recently took the train from Sydney Airport to Circular Quay. It was great, no hassles except for the grand canyon gap between the platform to the train which caught the front wheels of my chair twice. Luckily a local helped out. It's a stressless trip which cost $A17 each. The local said there are discounts for them. The train was clean roomy and the stations well sign posted and the announcements made sense. I can't remember how long it took but it was less than 1/2 and hour. I would love to see these in NZ.

I just checked, the fare should be $19.40, there would be a dollar or two discount with an Opal card.

Last time I used public transport from near the centre, there were three of us, we'd have had to catch a bus to the CBD then the rail, it would have cost us north of $60, a taxi cost just over $40 and delivered us to the terminal doors in quicker time that the bus/rail could have. In peak hour it would have been different, but outside of that the trains have limited advantage.

Except trains don't go past folks in chairs, it's surprising and sad that many buses and taxis do. Yes we did get an Opal Card and loaded a bit money on that we didn't completely use and it stays on it for a number of years. Trains are better for the environment, more comfortable than buses and safer than taxis. I would take the train anytime.

Fred99

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#2342382 23-Oct-2019 11:09

MikeB4:

Except trains don't go past folks in chairs, it's surprising and sad that many buses and taxis do. Yes we did get an Opal Card and loaded a bit money on that we didn't completely use and it stays on it for a number of years. Trains are better for the environment, more comfortable than buses and safer than taxis. I would take the train anytime.

Sure - I agree - and that truly sucks about taxis/buses not stopping - I'd be livid to see that happen to anybody. But Auckland sealed their own fate years ago, it's going to be a huge sinkhole of public money if it's ever going to be sorted. Using Paris or London as a comparison is invalid - they have very much larger populations and over a century head-start (predating the private motor vehicle). I never thought of renting a car when I've been there. Sydney's a better comparison and also a history of neglecting public transport infrastructure, but it also dwarfs Akl in size and has much higher population density within 20km or so of the CBD, so self-funding frequent service is much more viable, but it's still a hell of an expensive place to get around.

GV27

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#2342385 23-Oct-2019 11:21

Dingbatt:

Please tell me how a light rail line from the cbd through Mt Roskill to the airport will benefit people living in ‘poorer’ areas who are working multiple jobs to just try and make ends meet. I’d hazard a guess that anyone that can afford to live along the first bit of that line would not be considered poor. But then no one jumped on the SJ bandwagon until now by suggesting anything else is “anti poor”.

The line is proposed to go through Mangere, which currently has no rapid transit connections other than a motorway. So I'd start there.

The trade-off for these areas is just more and more congestion, not only of cars but buses too, as more and more are required to service a growing population.

You're sticking up with 'poor people trying to make ends meet working multiple jobs' but then not giving them any way to get to and from those jobs without losing hundreds of hours a year to sitting in congestion going nowhere. That's the choice we have.

Fred99

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#2342389 23-Oct-2019 11:30

GV27:

Dingbatt:

Please tell me how a light rail line from the cbd through Mt Roskill to the airport will benefit people living in ‘poorer’ areas who are working multiple jobs to just try and make ends meet. I’d hazard a guess that anyone that can afford to live along the first bit of that line would not be considered poor. But then no one jumped on the SJ bandwagon until now by suggesting anything else is “anti poor”.

The line is proposed to go through Mangere, which currently has no rapid transit connections other than a motorway. So I'd start there.

The trade-off for these areas is just more and more congestion, not only of cars but buses too, as more and more are required to service a growing population.

You're sticking up with 'poor people trying to make ends meet working multiple jobs' but then not giving them any way to get to and from those jobs without losing hundreds of hours a year to sitting in congestion going nowhere. That's the choice we have.

Aren't they also suggesting shifting the port to Whangarei? That should mean that the industries providing the jobs shift closer to the ports, reducing the trend for population growth in Auckland, which apart from traffic congestion has resulted in crazy housing prices and rents for what's in truth not a very large city despite being NZ's largest town, meaning that people need to work multiple jobs in order to get by.

GV27

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#2342418 23-Oct-2019 12:36

Fred99:

Aren't they also suggesting shifting the port to Whangarei? That should mean that the industries providing the jobs shift closer to the ports, reducing the trend for population growth in Auckland, which apart from traffic congestion has resulted in crazy housing prices and rents for what's in truth not a very large city despite being NZ's largest town, meaning that people need to work multiple jobs in order to get by.

New Zealand First is suggesting a $10b+ boondoggle to buy them a seat in Northland for life for Shane Jones, yes.

It would also create a regional freight hub in North West Auckland, which is rapidly intensifying and already congested. So that's really well thought out.

The only thing it's going to do is introduce a huge amount of supply chain risk into the local economy which possibly could damage growth, so that might work.

But considering that involves the loss of a publicly-owned asset in the form of the Port and the expectation that Aucklanders would fund a large part of the actual cost in addition to the further economic cost that comes with it, I'd rather we just grew organically and actually got our heads around actually serving the needs of the population, rather than just waiting for economically crippling republican-style villainy to make it so we don't have to.

Fred99

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#2342435 23-Oct-2019 12:59

So if the rail's going to cost $10b, and the shift of port is going to cost another $10b, then that's a cost per Auckland household of about $40,000 each - doubling everyone's rates for say the next 25 years or so should cover it. Maybe they should hold a referendum.

GV27

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#2342492 23-Oct-2019 15:30

Fred99:

So if the rail's going to cost $10b, and the shift of port is going to cost another $10b, then that's a cost per Auckland household of about $40,000 each - doubling everyone's rates for say the next 25 years or so should cover it. Maybe they should hold a referendum.

The rail is $10bn for basically a whole new transport network serving currently isolated areas with rapidly growing populations and congestion issues.

The $10bn port move is a blank cheque to a political relic that needs to be consigned to the history books.

I'd rather my ability to get to and from work and the time I get to spend with my family not be put on the same footing as securing NZ First's electoral future at the expense of the taxpayer.

tdgeek

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#2342598 23-Oct-2019 20:20

GV27:

Fred99:

So if the rail's going to cost $10b, and the shift of port is going to cost another $10b, then that's a cost per Auckland household of about $40,000 each - doubling everyone's rates for say the next 25 years or so should cover it. Maybe they should hold a referendum.

The rail is $10bn for basically a whole new transport network serving currently isolated areas with rapidly growing populations and congestion issues.

The $10bn port move is a blank cheque to a political relic that needs to be consigned to the history books.

I'd rather my ability to get to and from work and the time I get to spend with my family not be put on the same footing as securing NZ First's electoral future at the expense of the taxpayer.

Yes its a NZF move, but last I saw AC was for it? Open up the harbour for entertainment revenue

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