quickymart:

 

Which family you mean? Luxon's or yours?

 

Mine.

The idea his are is far funnier though. 

sen8or:

 

What would be interesting to find out is what the cost to build the hospital would be if functionality was at the forefront rather than design aesthetics from an architect looking to enhance his/her portfolio?

 

Is it also a classic case of project over-reach. Start with a simple, affordable, functional plan. Get it approved. Then various interest groups (whom arguably should have been consulted before approval) add their 2c worth along with an expensive list of "must haves" to start ballooning out the budget and back the Govt into a corner.

 

If the project had started and sought a $3bio project, would a Govt of either persuasion have given it the go ahead?

 

When I was in New Zealand I was pretty heavily involved in hospital construction on the building systems side. I've worked in most hospitals in the upper north island and have a working knowledge of the original design for the new Christchurch hospital from being heavily involved in the tender.

Clinical hospitals with full theatres are really complex. The architecture is pretty simple and they are designed around the workflow of the hospital rather than aesthetics. It's one of the reasons hospitals are typically fairly tall buildings even when you have space on the campus to make them lower with a bigger footprint. It's much faster to move patients around in a multilevel building.

Equally the systems in hospitals are significantly more complex than most buildings. Medical gases, theatre suites with pressure boundaries and iso rooms add really significant cost to a hospital that just don't exist in other buildings. There's also not that many contractors out there who are capable of building a clinical building. The finishing details are just different.

Yes hospitals are really expensive to build. That is mostly due to the nature of the building, not nice to haves.

You'd think we'd have enough ongoing refurb, expansions and new builds in hospitals across the entire country for there to be some fairly concentrated expertise and a decent pipeline of work. 

GV27:

 

You'd think we'd have enough ongoing refurb, expansions and new builds in hospitals across the entire country for there to be some fairly concentrated expertise and a decent pipeline of work. 

 

I would have thought so but apparently not. 

"We don't necessarily have the specialist contractors to do the laboratory spaces and all that sort of thing with a hospital. There's a lot of quite heavy duty, complex infrastructure that has to go in as far as a hospital is concerned and we are fairly limited in terms of the amount of contractors with the necessary skill set capacity. Hospitals don't come up every five minutes and this is one of those things."

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/529599/dunedin-hospital-why-does-it-cost-so-much

Sounds like an expensive mix of poor planning and lack of local expertise.

"We know there were problems with it right from day one. Site selection on a contaminated site requiring remediation and stuck between two state highways has added significant costs," he said.

"There were alternative options available. How the project was structured has also been a problem, with those designing the facility being divorced from those tasked with building it. A more coherent design and construction arrangement led from the centre by someone with real industry experience rather than a local project director with little relevant experience would have probably led to a better outcome also."

GV27:

You'd think we'd have enough ongoing refurb, expansions and new builds in hospitals across the entire country for there to be some fairly concentrated expertise and a decent pipeline of work. 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/529649/casey-costello-will-release-independent-advice-about-benefits-of-heated-tobacco-products

Costello is finally going to release her "independent advice" now. I don't know why she didn't previously though?

quickymart:

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/529649/casey-costello-will-release-independent-advice-about-benefits-of-heated-tobacco-products

 

Costello is finally going to release her "independent advice" now. I don't know why she didn't previously though?

 

It was really difficult to find someone independent who was willing to agree to her advice?

Handle9:

 

sen8or:

 

What would be interesting to find out is what the cost to build the hospital would be if functionality was at the forefront rather than design aesthetics from an architect looking to enhance his/her portfolio?

 

Is it also a classic case of project over-reach. Start with a simple, affordable, functional plan. Get it approved. Then various interest groups (whom arguably should have been consulted before approval) add their 2c worth along with an expensive list of "must haves" to start ballooning out the budget and back the Govt into a corner.

 

If the project had started and sought a $3bio project, would a Govt of either persuasion have given it the go ahead?

 

 

When I was in New Zealand I was pretty heavily involved in hospital construction on the building systems side. I've worked in most hospitals in the upper north island and have a working knowledge of the original design for the new Christchurch hospital from being heavily involved in the tender.

 

Clinical hospitals with full theatres are really complex. The architecture is pretty simple and they are designed around the workflow of the hospital rather than aesthetics. It's one of the reasons hospitals are typically fairly tall buildings even when you have space on the campus to make them lower with a bigger footprint. It's much faster to move patients around in a multilevel building.

 

Equally the systems in hospitals are significantly more complex than most buildings. Medical gases, theatre suites with pressure boundaries and iso rooms add really significant cost to a hospital that just don't exist in other buildings. There's also not that many contractors out there who are capable of building a clinical building. The finishing details are just different.

 

Yes hospitals are really expensive to build. That is mostly due to the nature of the building, not nice to haves.

 

Appreciate the input.

My only (limited) experience with Govt construction was when my old employer was contracted for various electrical installs at schools. There was a lot of over specifying of electrical components by the design / engineers / architects (stupidly expensive Dali lighting controls in classrooms with sensors etc as opposed to a $10 switch for example), expensive extrusion lighting, ornamental lighting to highlight various architectural features etc. 

My view is that where there is wastage in one Govt sector when it comes to construction, it wouldn't shock me if there were more

I appreciate that the build at a hospital will have far more technical requirements than many other projects, but, these would all have been known at the outset yet costs increased more than $1bio? That just reeks of either inadequate initial scoping (or incompetent / deceptive) or massive project creep.

quickymart:

 

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/529649/casey-costello-will-release-independent-advice-about-benefits-of-heated-tobacco-products

 

Costello is finally going to release her "independent advice" now. I don't know why she didn't previously though?

 

It was going to get OIA'd eventually, I think there might be some appreciation for how stupid this is making everyone in government look.

We must be due a reshuffle early next year; if she survives it or isn't at least severly demoted then it will confirm a few things I suspect people are now openly saying within National, who won't appreciate being tarnished by the NZ First brush. 

Actually with Seymour and Winston sharing deputy prime minister duties for 18 months, does that mean their MP's portfolios get shuffled around that time too? Or do they stay the same for the whole 3 years?

GV27:

 

Mine.

 

The idea his are is far funnier though. 

 

It means one of two things about Luxon: either he agrees with the policies, or wanted to be PM more than he cares about the damage the policies will do. If he truly disagrees with the policies, he always had the option to go to the GG and say he intended to run a minority government, assuming he's not the super deal maker he thinks he is and could negotiate a confidence & supply arrangement instead of a full coalition.

Personally, I think he agrees with the policies and is happy to have someone else to take most of the heat. He certainly doesn't give a flying function about letting people know he has nothing in common with the poors.

sen8or:

 

Appreciate the input.

 

My only (limited) experience with Govt construction was when my old employer was contracted for various electrical installs at schools. There was a lot of over specifying of electrical components by the design / engineers / architects (stupidly expensive Dali lighting controls in classrooms with sensors etc as opposed to a $10 switch for example), expensive extrusion lighting, ornamental lighting to highlight various architectural features etc. 

 

My view is that where there is wastage in one Govt sector when it comes to construction, it wouldn't shock me if there were more

 

I appreciate that the build at a hospital will have far more technical requirements than many other projects, but, these would all have been known at the outset yet costs increased more than $1bio? That just reeks of either inadequate initial scoping (or incompetent / deceptive) or massive project creep.

 

Making it cheap and ugly is not a great solution either.

If "Cheaper is better" you would see private companies not wasting share holder money is flash builds.

I have spent years working in a "box" painted battleship grey from when it was constructed 40+ years ago, it was depressing and deeply unwelcoming.

Now we have motion sensors to automatically turn on lighting in corridors then turn them off again, place feels like an abandoned psychiatric ward.

sir1963:

 

Now we have motion sensors to automatically turn on lighting in corridors then turn them off again, place feels like an abandoned psychiatric ward.

 

Go the full hog and rig those sensors to play loops of disjointed children's laughter at varying speeds as you walk through.

If you're going for abandoned nuthouse then might as well go full hog. 

Yet another example of punishing austerity IMO. 

GV27:

 

sir1963:

 

Now we have motion sensors to automatically turn on lighting in corridors then turn them off again, place feels like an abandoned psychiatric ward.

 

 

Go the full hog and rig those sensors to play loops of disjointed children's laughter at varying speeds as you walk through.

 

If you're going for abandoned nuthouse then might as well go full hog. 

 

Yet another example of punishing austerity IMO. 

 

Got to make some of the lights flicker randomly as well, and/or turn the lights off in the hallways in order moving toward whoever is standing there.

Let me put this through the translator. Oh, right: "I'm a rich white old man. I don't see any problem with the world we live in. There's no need for change."