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Handle9
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  #3290572 3-Oct-2024 16:31
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sen8or:

 

My view is that where there is wastage in one Govt sector when it comes to construction, it wouldn't shock me if there were more

 

I appreciate that the build at a hospital will have far more technical requirements than many other projects, but, these would all have been known at the outset yet costs increased more than $1bio? That just reeks of either inadequate initial scoping (or incompetent / deceptive) or massive project creep.

 

 

I haven't really seen significantly more or less waste in government construction than commercial construction. The buildings are typically better built but the big difference is the use of the buildings. Commercial buildings are typically much simpler than something like a hospital so much easier to control.

 

The worst project I've ever done for scope and program creep was a private job by a major New Zealand corporate. It was years late and costs 10s of millions of dollars extra on a more limited project than a hospital. The construction process is pretty broken, especially as buildings become considerably more complex.

 

The one comment I would make about the feature or technology in buildings is it is usually very poorly understood by the people building them. Sometimes it's unnecessary, sometimes the technology is used as it provides a benefit that you don't understand as you've moved on to the next job and don't see how the building is used or never really get to understand. Only around 30% of the costs of a building are construction, around 70% of the costs of the building are operational.

 

One example is when we built a forensic psych unit. It was built as a 1 1/2 floor building with a full mezzanine above the patient rooms. A number of the trades on the job were ranting about the extra cost. It was done that way because the people to be housed in that unit were really disturbed and in many cases dangerous.

 

Having the mezzanine allowed the building to be largely maintained while not disturbing the patients or exposing the technical staff to significant risks. The alternative was having to decant patients into different parts of the building or temporarily move them elsewhere, which had a whole range of costs associated with it as well as being better for patients and much much safer for staff.

 

That's not to say there isn't waste, poor decisions or crap QS/project management. There is but not in a way that I've seen to be significantly worse than the private sector.




SaltyNZ
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  #3290589 3-Oct-2024 16:54
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Handle9:

 

That's not to say there isn't waste, poor decisions or crap QS/project management. There is but not in a way that I've seen to be significantly worse than the private sector.

 

 

 

 

In my opinion a lot comes down to the fact that procurement is a fundamentally broken process. This applies to commercial procurements as well as public. We say that the lowest price won't necessarily win, but we all know that the lowest price is the one that gets the most consideration. The highest price gets thrown away right at the start.

 

This creates the incentive for proposals to, well, maybe not 'cut corners' exactly but certainly to make sure the project is presented in the most favourable light you think you can get away with a straight face. Everybody involved in putting together the proposal knows it's going to take a lot longer and cost a lot more, but if you put your best estimates into the proposal you're going to be the one that gets thrown away right at the start. So you leave no fat in your estimates, you move everything into the optional extras section, and you get chosen.

 

And then it takes as long as you thought it would and it costs as much as you thought it would, but that's years and millions over what the proposal said it would.

 

Everybody knows this. It happens Every. Damn. Time. 

 

But we never learn from it, we always, always go back to the quickest & cheapest option and then suprised Pikachu face when we get a blow out.

 

There's plenty of evidence coming out of the woodwork that the $3B figure for the hospital is neither completely true (as it includes operational expenses that will be incurred regardless of how much the building costs) nor an unexpected blow-out (as it includes costs that were deliberately excluded from the business case).

 

But the bottom line is, National's tax cuts for landlords would cover nearly the entire $3B cost of the hospital. People earning tax free money is a higher priority for Christopher Luxon than people getting health care. "I'm wealthy and I'm sorted."





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SaltyNZ
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  #3292750 4-Oct-2024 08:51
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Government to underwrite 30+ dwelling developments. While light on details, this seems like a genuinely good idea.





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sir1963
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  #3292948 4-Oct-2024 13:00
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SaltyNZ:

 

But the bottom line is, National's tax cuts for landlords would cover nearly the entire $3B cost of the hospital. People earning tax free money is a higher priority for Christopher Luxon than people getting health care. "I'm wealthy and I'm sorted."

 

 

 

 

Please, tell me, what groups pay capital gains taxes that landlords are exempt from ?

 

I have no issues on capital gains so long as it gets applied to everyone...yes that means the family home too, churches, charities, etc etc etc

 

 


tdgeek
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  #3292955 4-Oct-2024 13:23
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sir1963:

 

SaltyNZ:

 

But the bottom line is, National's tax cuts for landlords would cover nearly the entire $3B cost of the hospital. People earning tax free money is a higher priority for Christopher Luxon than people getting health care. "I'm wealthy and I'm sorted."

 

 

 

 

Please, tell me, what groups pay capital gains taxes that landlords are exempt from ?

 

I have no issues on capital gains so long as it gets applied to everyone...yes that means the family home too, churches, charities, etc etc etc

 

 

 

 

I feel the issue with a home is that you may get a $ gain, but you really don't

 

Buy a house 300k back in the day.  Sell it today for 675k. Now you have nowhere to live, so you buy a house of similar size, location etc, you pay 675k

 

If you are a one house owner, it doesn't really work as the $ gain is just matching the market

 

Or have I missed something?  


sir1963
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  #3292965 4-Oct-2024 13:56
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tdgeek:

 

I feel the issue with a home is that you may get a $ gain, but you really don't

 

Buy a house 300k back in the day.  Sell it today for 675k. Now you have nowhere to live, so you buy a house of similar size, location etc, you pay 675k

 

If you are a one house owner, it doesn't really work as the $ gain is just matching the market

 

Or have I missed something?  

 

 

 

 

And if you sell to move overseas ?

 

How about give it to a family member ?

 

Death ?

 

Sell to move in with a new partner ?

 

Other businesses, farms, commercial property, don't pay capital gains (but they can claim depreciation and interest expenses), neither do collectors, nothing on shares, property owned by churches/charities, jewellery, antiques, etc etc etc.

 

Or have I missed something ?


SaltyNZ
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  #3292970 4-Oct-2024 14:03
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tdgeek:

 

If you are a one house owner, it doesn't really work as the $ gain is just matching the market

 

Or have I missed something?  

 

 

 

 

It isn't really an issue with people who merely own their own homes. The problem comes with investors. The lack of capital gains tax means that the way to make the most money is to buy a property and rent it out, then when its value goes up, sell it again and pay no tax. Oh, and in the meantime, someone else is paying off your loan.

 

Worse still, you can keep the house, revalue it, and borrow (also tax-free) against the higher value and use it buy a second house. Rinse and repeat as much as you like.

 

The upshot is that this tax arrangement means not only does this country lock up all its money in swapping houses with each other instead of putting into productive enterprises, but it makes it increasingly more difficult for people to buy houses to actually live in.

 

The Labour government's removal of the tax credit on interest payments crucially did not apply to new builds. So if you just wanted to play the house swapping game, you at least paid some more tax for the privilege. But if you increased the housing supply by building a new house, you could still get your tax credit.

 

If you're already rich enough to buy a house to rent out, you only pax tax if you make a profit on the rental income, and nothing on the capital gain.

 

If you're not rich to buy a house to rent out, your only asset is your income from employment, and you pay tax on all of that.

 

 





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SaltyNZ
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  #3292973 4-Oct-2024 14:07
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sir1963:

 

Other businesses, farms, commercial property, don't pay capital gains (but they can claim depreciation and interest expenses), neither do collectors, nothing on shares, property owned by churches/charities, jewellery, antiques, etc etc etc.

 

Or have I missed something ?

 

 

 

 

If we put in a CGT, it should be put onto all of those things too (except registered charities).





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tdgeek
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  #3292998 4-Oct-2024 15:37
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sir1963:

 

 

 

And if you sell to move overseas ?

 

How about give it to a family member ?

 

Death ?

 

Sell to move in with a new partner ?

 

Other businesses, farms, commercial property, don't pay capital gains (but they can claim depreciation and interest expenses), neither do collectors, nothing on shares, property owned by churches/charities, jewellery, antiques, etc etc etc.

 

Or have I missed something ?

 

 

The Other business etc should pay CGT

 

Re the earlier examples, your still dealing with your home as one asset.  Its the same house it was 10, 20 years ago. If you sell to move overseas you transfer your one home overseas. Give it away, that's fine. Death, its still one home that you are passing on. Move in with a new partner, yes that's a bonus (unless it turns to custard) but its the one home that you bought, and its still the same inherent value as the next door house 20 years later. Yes, house to salary ratio can and has changed over time, but you are hedged. your 3 bedder house is still equal to the 3 bedder next door 


sir1963
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  #3293009 4-Oct-2024 16:04
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SaltyNZ:

 

It isn't really an issue with people who merely own their own homes. The problem comes with investors. The lack of capital gains tax means that the way to make the most money is to buy a property and rent it out, then when its value goes up, sell it again and pay no tax. Oh, and in the meantime, someone else is paying off your loan.

 

Worse still, you can keep the house, revalue it, and borrow (also tax-free) against the higher value and use it buy a second house. Rinse and repeat as much as you like.

 

The upshot is that this tax arrangement means not only does this country lock up all its money in swapping houses with each other instead of putting into productive enterprises, but it makes it increasingly more difficult for people to buy houses to actually live in.

 

The Labour government's removal of the tax credit on interest payments crucially did not apply to new builds. So if you just wanted to play the house swapping game, you at least paid some more tax for the privilege. But if you increased the housing supply by building a new house, you could still get your tax credit.

 

If you're already rich enough to buy a house to rent out, you only pax tax if you make a profit on the rental income, and nothing on the capital gain.

 

If you're not rich to buy a house to rent out, your only asset is your income from employment, and you pay tax on all of that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually for many years the capital gain was less than inflation.

 

Starting with the GFC cheap money became available, worse money sitting in the bank was pointless, you could not live off it. So those who lived off the interest found they couldn't so they shifted into property as the next safest investment. These people were NEVER going to invest the way you want them to. We also had an influx of immigrants.

 

It actually also created another problem, developer buys an old home, get the old house valued as high as he can, demolishes it, claims the depreciation of the building (100%), cost of demolition etc, then builds an unaffordable home that first home buyers were priced out of. Genuine landlords were NOT the speculators, they just made an easy target.

 

The money did not stack up for new builds for landlords, for developers, sure, but they were exempt anyway so it made zero difference.

 

Now we have a situation where the cost to build is so much higher than buying an existing home (of similar specs) that unless you are going to build a mansion to live in you are better off buying and existing home (by up to hundreds of thousands of dollars). And if you want a house with some land with it rather than a pocket handkerchief section (down to 150m2 now is it ?) you have to buy existing houses.

 

I believe I say the average new home build was $1 million, how many fist home buyers can afford that ?

 

Even if a LL put in 50% as a deposit the interest on $500,000 would be $576 a week @6% + rates (100pw), + insurance, + maintenance + etc. Even at $800 a week there is still no actual return (possibly a loss), they would be better off putting the money into the bank @4% and make $20,000 less tax.

 

I know LL who are selling (to other LL or developers) who then go on overseas trips with practically $0 spent here in NZ.

 

Meantime older people who worked and saved and have their own house.... when they need to go into care, the basically loose their assets to the government until such time as they are poor enough to be exempt, they paid higher taxes, go not free childcare, had to pay for doctors visits, etc etc etc and of course no employer was having to meet dollar for dollar (to a point) to go into kiwi saver, if you did nothing yourself, too bad.

 

All the gerrymandering did was make things WORSE by different reasons.

 

Labours "most houses built" claim was kind of true, but if you did it per head of population we were building twice as many houses in the 1970's. The issue was a lack of investment for 50 years that finally goy caught up with by international financial issues and a much bigger worlds population with large numbers emigrating from poor countries. Combine that with the continued brain drain and this dogged reliance of the "back bone of NZ"...farming... and we ended up where we are, and it was NOT caused by landlords.....85% of whom own 1 rental.

 

There is no such thing as "Fair" , go check with the disabled.

 

 

 

 


sir1963
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  #3293033 4-Oct-2024 16:06
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tdgeek:

 

The Other business etc should pay CGT

 

Re the earlier examples, your still dealing with your home as one asset.  Its the same house it was 10, 20 years ago. If you sell to move overseas you transfer your one home overseas. Give it away, that's fine. Death, its still one home that you are passing on. Move in with a new partner, yes that's a bonus (unless it turns to custard) but its the one home that you bought, and its still the same inherent value as the next door house 20 years later. Yes, house to salary ratio can and has changed over time, but you are hedged. your 3 bedder house is still equal to the 3 bedder next door 

 

 

 

 

I am guessing its that you don't think YOU should have to pay the tax ?


sir1963
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  #3293034 4-Oct-2024 16:07
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SaltyNZ:

 

sir1963:

 

Other businesses, farms, commercial property, don't pay capital gains (but they can claim depreciation and interest expenses), neither do collectors, nothing on shares, property owned by churches/charities, jewellery, antiques, etc etc etc.

 

Or have I missed something ?

 

 

 

 

If we put in a CGT, it should be put onto all of those things too (except registered charities).

 

 

 

 

Like Brian Tamaki's lot ?


Handle9
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  #3293085 4-Oct-2024 21:26
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SaltyNZ:

 

tdgeek:

 

If you are a one house owner, it doesn't really work as the $ gain is just matching the market

 

Or have I missed something?  

 

 

It isn't really an issue with people who merely own their own homes. 

 

 

One of the issues with a CGT that doesn't include the family home is that it incentivizes overleveraging and over-investing in the family home. It will definitely be a byproduct of a CGT that doesn't include the family home. Those with money will find the most efficient way to get a return out of their capital.

 

It's also worth pointing out that a CGT has not stopped house price inflation and unaffordability in other fairly similar countries such as Australia and the UK. Housing cost isn't primarily a tax issue, it's primarily a supply, cost and planning issue. Tax tilts the scales a bit it's not the primary driver of the problem.

 

Edit: A CGT is a good idea but it's not going to fix housing prices.


quickymart
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  #3293088 4-Oct-2024 21:58
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https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/10/04/bizarre-critics-baffled-by-costellos-independent-advice-on-heated-tobacco/

 

She sure picked a random bunch of documents to base her decision on. Can it be overturned at all, or is this set in stone now?

 

She's starting to remind me of Simeon Brown, someone else in this government I think is highly incompetent at their job, too.


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