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ockel
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  #3033965 9-Feb-2023 13:21

Kyanar:

 

tdgeek:

 

Who built Kiwibuild, who funded it?

 

Labour built it and taxpayers funded it. Unsure how that's relevant to UFB, a global phemonema, where taxpayers funded it, and network operators built it

 

 

Look, I think it's fair to say that at the risk of going off-topic, we can at least credit National on that one with not sabotaging it like their Australian counterparts did with the NBN. I don't think there's anything wrong with giving "the other side" a nod when they do something right, and it does seem to me, as a detractor at the best of times of National, that there does seem to be a lot of effort to try avoid giving National even the barest minimum of credit for anything.

 

In fairness, some posters (and I think they all know who they are) are equally determined to spin anything Labour does as incompetent, malicious, or purely out of self-interest.

 

This kind of partisan point-scoring is exactly why political engagement is in the toilet. To anyone looking at it from the outside, it just seems pointless when everything is reduced to petty quibbling.

 

 

National were hardly going to sabotage something that was their election policy.  I recall being canvassed by John Key prior to its announcement.  I couldnt get my head around why a National government would launch a Labour style policy - or have it debt funded by the Government via CFH. 

 

By the time that there was a change of Government in 2017 it would have been extremely difficult to unpick the UFB structure and progress.





Sixth Labour Government - "Vision without Execution is just Hallucination" 




tdgeek
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  #3034037 9-Feb-2023 14:03
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Kyanar:

 

 

 

Look, I think it's fair to say that at the risk of going off-topic, we can at least credit National on that one with not sabotaging it like their Australian counterparts did with the NBN. I don't think there's anything wrong with giving "the other side" a nod when they do something right, and it does seem to me, as a detractor at the best of times of National, that there does seem to be a lot of effort to try avoid giving National even the barest minimum of credit for anything.

 

In fairness, some posters (and I think they all know who they are) are equally determined to spin anything Labour does as incompetent, malicious, or purely out of self-interest.

 

This kind of partisan point-scoring is exactly why political engagement is in the toilet. To anyone looking at it from the outside, it just seems pointless when everything is reduced to petty quibbling.

 

 

Agree. I recall when the Politics threads started, that I stated that all main parties have pros and cons, that will always be the case. Cool, might be an interesting topic. But yes, quibbling is the order of the day whether it's here or in the media, and MP's jabbing each other. So generally, a debate never happens, its point scoring, and some points do have merit, but an outsider wouldn't probably see that in any case due to the white noise and back and forth.


networkn
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  #3034072 9-Feb-2023 15:26
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ockel:

 

National were hardly going to sabotage something that was their election policy.  I recall being canvassed by John Key prior to its announcement.  I couldnt get my head around why a National government would launch a Labour style policy - or have it debt funded by the Government via CFH. 

 

 

To be honest, when I heard the Government (National) was going to build it, I was very negative toward it, but I was 100% wrong. It's one of the best things to happen to infrastructure in NZ in 50 years. 

 

Lockdown compliance in NZ would have been significantly lower if people had been asked to work from home or stay home and amuse themselves on copper.

 

 

 

 




GV27
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  #3034076 9-Feb-2023 15:46
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tdgeek:

 

Agree. I recall when the Politics threads started, that I stated that all main parties have pros and cons, that will always be the case. Cool, might be an interesting topic. But yes, quibbling is the order of the day whether it's here or in the media, and MP's jabbing each other. So generally, a debate never happens, its point scoring, and some points do have merit, but an outsider wouldn't probably see that in any case due to the white noise and back and forth.

 

 

It's important to at least appreciate the things that parties do get right. I struggle to reconcile the current National approach which is 'build nothing' with the same kind of party that (belatedly) approved the CRL, and took the electrification of Auckland seriously enough to persevere with it even after cancelling the proposed regional fuel tax in 2009.


johno1234
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  #3034169 9-Feb-2023 17:24
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GV27:

 

tdgeek:

 

Agree. I recall when the Politics threads started, that I stated that all main parties have pros and cons, that will always be the case. Cool, might be an interesting topic. But yes, quibbling is the order of the day whether it's here or in the media, and MP's jabbing each other. So generally, a debate never happens, its point scoring, and some points do have merit, but an outsider wouldn't probably see that in any case due to the white noise and back and forth.

 

 

It's important to at least appreciate the things that parties do get right. I struggle to reconcile the current National approach which is 'build nothing' with the same kind of party that (belatedly) approved the CRL, and took the electrification of Auckland seriously enough to persevere with it even after cancelling the proposed regional fuel tax in 2009.

 

 

I expect any party to do a cost/benefit analysis to justify large expensive projects. The benefit doesn't have to be financial, but has to be reasonably well demonstrated. The cycle bridge never had it. The tunneled light rail doesn't. Nor does the Te Huia train. 


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  #3034170 9-Feb-2023 17:25
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networkn:

 

It was literally the front page top most article on every reputable news site in NZ.

 

 

-1. That is a dumb reaction even from you.

 

 





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  #3034181 9-Feb-2023 18:31
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GV27:

 

It's important to at least appreciate the things that parties do get right. I struggle to reconcile the current National approach which is 'build nothing' with the same kind of party that (belatedly) approved the CRL, and took the electrification of Auckland seriously enough to persevere with it even after cancelling the proposed regional fuel tax in 2009.

 

 

I agree and 100%. I allude to my earlier post, both parties have pros and cons. They arent a mile apart. But in these threads they are 100 miles apart. Labour are inept lunatics, National is the man. That may sound like poetic licence, but here it isnt. I can list many pros for both parties, and many cons. Now, in the real world both parties are centrist, one left one right. Its not like the old days where Labour are frenetic unionists, hate businesses, go the workers. Or National is screw the workers we are for businesses. Thank God. But TBH that is not the theme here, by a long shot. As I also stated, this could be a cool thread, discuss this discuss thats, but thats not the case. Pity. I voted Labour last 2 elections, that now makes Nats vs Labs even for me. A couple of Greens and a couple no votes.I was going to vote Winston 2017 till the last minute, to keep a check on Labour in fact. So Not Guilty there :-)

 

In short, its about NZ, both parties are not inept and stupid.

 

But here they are, which is incorrect, and the "bias" in my view is unbalanced. Assuming National win October, us current Labs will come out guns swinging. We will also be angry. No to both. Not quite the same in reverse, and that deesnt apply to all

 

 


 
 
 

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ockel
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  #3034190 9-Feb-2023 18:56

tdgeek:

 

GV27:

 

It's important to at least appreciate the things that parties do get right. I struggle to reconcile the current National approach which is 'build nothing' with the same kind of party that (belatedly) approved the CRL, and took the electrification of Auckland seriously enough to persevere with it even after cancelling the proposed regional fuel tax in 2009.

 

 

I agree and 100%. I allude to my earlier post, both parties have pros and cons. They arent a mile apart. But in these threads they are 100 miles apart. Labour are inept lunatics, National is the man. That may sound like poetic licence, but here it isnt. I can list many pros for both parties, and many cons. Now, in the real world both parties are centrist, one left one right. Its not like the old days where Labour are frenetic unionists, hate businesses, go the workers. Or National is screw the workers we are for businesses. Thank God. But TBH that is not the theme here, by a long shot. As I also stated, this could be a cool thread, discuss this discuss thats, but thats not the case. Pity. I voted Labour last 2 elections, that now makes Nats vs Labs even for me. A couple of Greens and a couple no votes.I was going to vote Winston 2017 till the last minute, to keep a check on Labour in fact. So Not Guilty there :-)

 

In short, its about NZ, both parties are not inept and stupid.

 

But here they are, which is incorrect, and the "bias" in my view is unbalanced. Assuming National win October, us current Labs will come out guns swinging. We will also be angry. No to both. Not quite the same in reverse, and that deesnt apply to all

 

 

 

 

Both parties ARE inept and stupid.  They are shades of grey.  Politicians are, both in local body politics and national politics, vacuous wastes of space there to collect a paycheck from the taxpayer representing their party rather than their constituents.  We debate how bad the centrists are but never debate how loony the other fringe parties are.  Including NZFirst - and I blame people like you for 2017-2020.  That is a period of inactivity that should never have happened.





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tdgeek
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  #3034196 9-Feb-2023 19:14
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ockel:

 

 

 

Both parties ARE inept and stupid.  They are shades of grey.  Politicians are, both in local body politics and national politics, vacuous wastes of space there to collect a paycheck from the taxpayer representing their party rather than their constituents.  We debate how bad the centrists are but never debate how loony the other fringe parties are.  Including NZFirst - and I blame people like you for 2017-2020.  That is a period of inactivity that should never have happened.

 

 

You need to lay off the beers. Who would be a politician? Poorly paid, long hours. IMO most of them devote a lot of time to public service while the rest of us enjoy 40-50 hour work weeks and plenty of family and friend time. 

 

So centrists are inept, and the fringe parties. So all are inept. Or loony. 

 

Despite my current bias, and previous bias "Both parties ARE inept and stupid" is a silly statement. There are other doctrines apart from democracy I guess. There are downsodes to democracy, but dont blame the people that put their name in the hat.

 

Geez 


freitasm

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  #3034199 9-Feb-2023 19:17
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Rikkitic:

networkn:


It was literally the front page top most article on every reputable news site in NZ.



-1. That is a dumb reaction even from you.


 



A bit of cold water, please.




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gzt

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  #3034200 9-Feb-2023 19:24
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invisibleman18: So a person on the new minimum wage working 40 hours a week will earn a salary of $47,216, very close to the $48,000 where 30% tax comes in. With some overtime or working on a few public holidays some will go into the next tax bracket.

Your comment is incorrect or misleading. That is frequently said during wage increases and is wrong. In actual fact - 17.5% applies up to every dollar earned until $48K and 30% will apply to every dollar above 48K. The entire pay packet is not suddenly taxed at 30% as people sometimes claim during wage increases.

How can it be right that "minimum" wage is on one of the top tax rates?

Wrong once again. It isn't one of the top tax rates.


gzt

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  #3034201 9-Feb-2023 19:25
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invisibleman18

I take your points about tax brackets and inflation. I've seen no political party come up with a complete proposal on how that will work in practice. I expect there are a few scenarios where it puts a government in a difficult position and no-one in government actually wants to go there. It seems destined to be a perennial opposition policy.

Rikkitic
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  #3034211 9-Feb-2023 19:50
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freitasm:

A bit of cold water, please.

 

Agree. I apologise. 

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


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  #3034216 9-Feb-2023 20:11
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gzt:
invisibleman18

I take your points about tax brackets and inflation. I've seen no political party come up with a complete proposal on how that will work in practice. I expect there are a few scenarios where it puts a government in a difficult position and no-one in government actually wants to go there. It seems destined to be a perennial opposition policy.

 

The reality of it is that for the most part, bracket adjustment is a sane idea, but it's not a vote winner in this day and age - a government that proposes it is accused of "tax cuts for the rich", even though the lower and middle income earners also take home some benefit from it. It's especially politically suicidal when the government is also talking about budget holes (from events like COVID) to propose forgoing tax revenue.


invisibleman18
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  #3034229 9-Feb-2023 21:30
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gzt: Your comment is incorrect or misleading. That is frequently said during wage increases and is wrong. In actual fact - 17.5% applies up to every dollar earned until $48K and 30% will apply to every dollar above 48K. The entire pay packet is not suddenly taxed at 30% as people sometimes claim during wage increases.


Thanks for the explanation but I am well aware of the tax rates. Nowhere in my post did I say their entire income would be taxed at the next rate, nor was it incorrect to say that someone working full time on minimum wage would be close to crossing the next threshold and likely would do with overtime and public holiday pay. I should have said a "high" rate rather than "top" (it was the second highest rate until the 39% threshold came in in 2021 which admittedly I'd forgot since it's never going to affect me). Anyway the point was I consider the 30% rate to be high for "minimum" wage to cross.

Also, 17.5% applies to income between 14k-18k. 10.5% applies up to to 14k.

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