Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)

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#2859673 31-Jan-2022 22:41

Technofreak:

I agree they got somethings right even if slower than ideal but that doesn't explain why we fared so much better than many countries.

They basically did what a lot of other governments had done, having the benefit of time to see how things were developing and being able to pick and choose options. They did nothing out of the ordinary and no more than many other governments yet we fared much better than most places. Our better performance isn't just explained by what our government has done.

I gather you're not a fan, but to be fair , you're selling the achievements of Ms Ardern's covid response short.

"They did nothing out of the ordinary". NZ had a lockdown. So did Australia.

"They did no more than many other governments". Actually they did. Australia for example, during their 'lockdown', kept garden centres and building suppliers and other non emergency or critical businesses open.

The government had the nerve to shut down EVERYTHING that wasn't vital to putting food on the table.

The exhortation to 'be kind' was actually genius with its simplicity and empathy. What did Boris Johnson come up with? "Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives" which sounds empty and trite.

It was that exhortation that united us and showed we have a real leader at the moment. Not a mere manager.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

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#2859928 1-Feb-2022 13:34

elpenguino:

I gather you're not a fan, but to be fair , you're selling the achievements of Ms Ardern's covid response short.

"They did nothing out of the ordinary". NZ had a lockdown. So did Australia.

"They did no more than many other governments". Actually they did. Australia for example, during their 'lockdown', kept garden centres and building suppliers and other non emergency or critical businesses open.

The government had the nerve to shut down EVERYTHING that wasn't vital to putting food on the table.

The exhortation to 'be kind' was actually genius with its simplicity and empathy. What did Boris Johnson come up with? "Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives" which sounds empty and trite.

It was that exhortation that united us and showed we have a real leader at the moment. Not a mere manager.

We definitely see our government through different lenses. That's not to say either of us is right or wrong.

Correct, I'm not a fan of Jacinda Ardern and her government. There's far to much self acclamation, too many focus groups to decide policy, plenty of talk and very little action that produces an outcome.

While there's nothing wrong with "being kind" in fact it has a lot to recommend it, however for me it's a non statement, "Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives" actually means something and tells me what to do and why. I guess I'm that sort of person, I'm not touchy feely, I prefer facts.

I don't think the country is as united as you might like to think it is. A lot of people I know are not united behind Jacinda's government and have never been plus they don't see her as a good leader. A small percentage have taken on their anti vax stance as a way of protesting against Jacinda. A large percentage of the people I know have co-operated with the government's pandemic actions, not because they are united behind Jacinda as a leader, but because they realise we need to work together to get through the pandemic. This gives a a facade of a unity that's not really there.

No doubt you move in different circles and your experience is different.

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#2860058 1-Feb-2022 14:55

Technofreak:

elpenguino:

I gather you're not a fan, but to be fair , you're selling the achievements of Ms Ardern's covid response short.

"They did nothing out of the ordinary". NZ had a lockdown. So did Australia.

"They did no more than many other governments". Actually they did. Australia for example, during their 'lockdown', kept garden centres and building suppliers and other non emergency or critical businesses open.

The government had the nerve to shut down EVERYTHING that wasn't vital to putting food on the table.

The exhortation to 'be kind' was actually genius with its simplicity and empathy. What did Boris Johnson come up with? "Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives" which sounds empty and trite.

It was that exhortation that united us and showed we have a real leader at the moment. Not a mere manager.

We definitely see our government through different lenses. That's not to say either of us is right or wrong.

Correct, I'm not a fan of Jacinda Ardern and her government. There's far to much self acclamation, too many focus groups to decide policy, plenty of talk and very little action that produces an outcome.

While there's nothing wrong with "being kind" in fact it has a lot to recommend it, however for me it's a non statement, "Stay Home, Protect the NHS, Save Lives" actually means something and tells me what to do and why. I guess I'm that sort of person, I'm not touchy feely, I prefer facts.

I don't think the country is as united as you might like to think it is. A lot of people I know are not united behind Jacinda's government and have never been plus they don't see her as a good leader. A small percentage have taken on their anti vax stance as a way of protesting against Jacinda. A large percentage of the people I know have co-operated with the government's pandemic actions, not because they are united behind Jacinda as a leader, but because they realise we need to work together to get through the pandemic. This gives a a facade of a unity that's not really there.

No doubt you move in different circles and your experience is different.

I think we do. I've got friends and family who work in various ministries or who have worked for the odd minister from time to time. Friends and family with degrees in political science and related fields. You know, people who actually know about politics and what actually is going on or has gone on in the past. These are not people who see a headline and react 'bloody gummint'.

There are always those who will act contrary to the general mindset or greater good out of some misguided view that they are sticking it to the man. Like those drongos in their utes who occupy EV charging parks and stick the cord under the bonnet.

And there are those who follow team blue cos that's what mum and dad told them to do - not saying you're one of them.

But at the heart of it, if you're an average working person in this country, you can't expect National to actually act in your interests. They might appear to act in your interests in some small way but overall, they're the party of farmers and businessmen. For example, it's labour that has brought in minimum rental standards but it was national that increased gst and dropped income tax for the more wealthy.

If you're a working person and vote for national , it's like a turkey voting for christmas. As is refusing to be vaccinated during a pandemic. I hope people who take such a stance to be contrary don't pay the ultimate price for their stupidity but karma has a way of catching up with people.

Re the 'be kind' thing. Yes, of course it was accompanied by practical advice like check in on your neighbours etc. But in terms of being a memorable line, do you think in 50 years people will be quoting boris' 'stay home etc' motto as they do 'we will fight them on the beaches' ? No, they wont. That's because it is empty of inspiration, unlike 'be kind'.

How does one 'protect the NHS' ? By getting your pitchfork and forming a perimeter around the nearest doctor's surgery? It's actually a nonsense statement.

Most of the posters in this thread are just like chimpanzees on MDMA, full of feelings of bonhomie, joy, and optimism. Fred99 8/4/21

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#2860246 1-Feb-2022 21:12

One big issue with the "Be kind" mantra there are too many examples of where the government hasn't walked the talk.

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#2861544 4-Feb-2022 09:06

Technofreak:

Correct, I'm not a fan of Jacinda Ardern and her government. There's far to much self acclamation, too many focus groups to decide policy, plenty of talk and very little action that produces an outcome.

Many people can't see past the negatives if there's someone they don't like at the helm or they don't like the ideology. Its like Trumpers who call Biden Sleepy Joe who hasn't achieved anything despite infrastructure being something Trump campaigned on. On many issues I don't see Labour's lack of progress much different to National's TBH. I'd bet money National would've %@#$ed us during covid.

I don't think the country is as united as you might like to think it is. A lot of people I know are not united behind Jacinda's government and have never been plus they don't see her as a good leader. A small percentage have taken on their anti vax stance as a way of protesting against Jacinda.

Well an antivaxer is going to protest just as hard against any leader so... meh.

I would agree NZ is not united & Labour has a flaw with self-awareness that they need to get on top of. Thankfully its not even remotely close to US polarization as we have a lot of moderates.

I mix with a diverse crowd living on the Shore which is hard Blue but Red close by. I'd call myself a moderate but among true conservatives I find "disagreeing with the Left" is always what defines their views on leadership & morality, regardless of how short sighted, self-serving or nonsensical it gets.

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#2861591 4-Feb-2022 10:18

arcon:

Many people can't see past the negatives if there's someone they don't like at the helm or they don't like the ideology. Its like Trumpers who call Biden Sleepy Joe who hasn't achieved anything despite infrastructure being something Trump campaigned on. On many issues I don't see Labour's lack of progress much different to National's TBH. I'd bet money National would've %@#$ed us during covid.

And Labour hasn't? There's plenty of Mum and Dad small businesses suffering very badly right now because of how the pandemic has been managed. We are yet to see the full effect of Labour's efforts on Covid.

Leaving Covid aside, can you name one project that Labour championed at the start of their first term that has been even a moderate success?

arcon:

Well an antivaxer is going to protest just as hard against any leader so... meh.

I would agree NZ is not united & Labour has a flaw with self-awareness that they need to get on top of. Thankfully its not even remotely close to US polarization as we have a lot of moderates.

I mix with a diverse crowd living on the Shore which is hard Blue but Red close by. I'd call myself a moderate but among true conservatives I find "disagreeing with the Left" is always what defines their views on leadership & morality, regardless of how short sighted, self-serving or nonsensical it gets.

I agree that we do have a lot of moderates and don't have the same degree of polarisation. That has certainly helped us through Covid so far. In fact there have been many offers of help to this government from people that I'd suspect were not necessarily Labour supporters.

I'd call myself a moderate but among the true left wing I find "disagreeing with the Right" is always what defines their views on leadership & morality, regardless of how short sighted, self-serving or nonsensical it gets.

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#2862098 5-Feb-2022 13:06

Technofreak:

Leaving Covid aside, can you name one project that Labour championed at the start of their first term that has been even a moderate success?

I can answer this. There's one thing: the foreign buyer ban - and even then it's a heavily watered down version of what was actually campaigned on.

Instead of renegotiating our long-standing free-trade agreements with major partners when it got pointed out they couldn't actually deliver what they were promising, they just locked in exemptions for Singaporeans and Australians. The whole thing was a cynical dogwhistle based on the idea that the official stats that said foreign buyers made up a single-digit percentage of purchasers were flawed, that the idea that Australian buyers were the biggest portion of foreign purchasers was absurd and there was supposedly a huge number of Chinese buyers that the data was ignoring or John Key was personally ordering be covered up to preserve trade relationships.

In the end, I suspect the thing that actually nuked most Chinese activity in our market was the Chinese themselves cracking down on money-laundering about six months before the election itself and sending money overseas from within China - something that Labour was never going to do from here and actually had stuff all to do with the FBB.

Worth keeping in mind, considering they never apologised for the 'Chinese sounding last-names' debacle, Ardern just apologised that people were upset by it. And then we blew our own property market out of the water after all supposed waterfall of dirty money was stopped, so maybe we were the problem the whole time - and I suspect they damn well know it, given their walkbacks on affordability, tax reform and the Kiwibuild program.

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#2862155 5-Feb-2022 13:45

elpenguino:

How does one 'protect the NHS' ? By getting your pitchfork and forming a perimeter around the nearest doctor's surgery? It's actually a nonsense statement.

I am not having any difficulty understanding the intent or sentiment behind it. But then my wife, sister, aunt and many close friends work in healthcare.

Our Omicron response is to slow the spread not stop it, flatten the curve so that doctors, nurses, healthcare workers, and facilities aren't overwhelmed. Many people will die if we don't do this, not necessarily from covid but rather because the hospitals don't have capacity to treat other life threatening illnesses.

In 2 years our ICU capacity has not meaningfully increased. Though inaction and ineptitude, immigration NZ has created situations where doctors from overseas couldn't get here, and the ones that were here from overseas already weren't given what they needed to stay so left. I have first-hand knowledge of this.

NZ's entire ICU capacity is less than 1/4 of NSW.

None of those things is acceptable.

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#2862157 5-Feb-2022 13:48

I'd bet money National would've %@#$ed us during covid.

We are a socialist little country and our government major parties are both slightly off centre. Our tolerance for a high death toll is very low, even compared to Australia. With the same information and same choices, broad strokes I believe the response would have been fairly similar.

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#2862159 5-Feb-2022 13:49

Technofreak:

One big issue with the "Be kind" mantra there are too many examples of where the government hasn't walked the talk.

Man oh man, you are not wrong about that.

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#2862164 5-Feb-2022 14:11

networkn:

We are a socialist little country and our government major parties are both slightly off centre. Our tolerance for a high death toll is very low, even compared to Australia. With the same information and same choices, broad strokes I believe the response would have been fairly similar.

All I can remember is National always criticising Labours response, so if they were not criticising for the sake of it they would’ve opened up earlier and not had as long, and tight lockdowns.

So I don’t believe the response would’ve been the same, and do believe there would’ve been a lot more deaths under National. I see them as business interests first, including airlines etc, and then they think everything else will fall into place.

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#2862165 5-Feb-2022 14:16

rugrat:
networkn:

We are a socialist little country and our government major parties are both slightly off centre. Our tolerance for a high death toll is very low, even compared to Australia. With the same information and same choices, broad strokes I believe the response would have been fairly similar.

All I can remember is National always criticising Labours response, so if they were not criticising for the sake of it they would’ve opened up earlier and not had as long, and tight lockdowns.

So I don’t believe the response would’ve been the same, and do believe there would’ve been a lot more deaths under National. I see them as business interests first, including airlines etc, and then everything else will fall into place.

Politicians criticise for the sake of it, both Labour & National are just as bad as each other at this. The reality is the plan was fairly simple for a small isolated country, shut the border. Both parties would have done the same regardless of what National have said as the ‘opposition’.

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#2862167 5-Feb-2022 14:17

Sorry, but I will judge them as what they have said as the opposition. if they are going to say things they don’t mean, that is on them.

The same goes for Labour when they are in opposition.

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#2862217 5-Feb-2022 14:30

rugrat:
Sorry, but I will judge them as what they have said as the opposition. if they are going to say things they don’t mean, that is on them.

The same goes for Labour when they are in opposition.

I wouldn’t judge any political party by what they have said, recall the promises Labour made in 2017?? Politicians will say anything to get into power.

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#2862219 5-Feb-2022 14:39

rugrat:

The same goes for Labour when they are in opposition.

Then you can't think much of Labour right now, both based on what they said prior to being elected and what they have promised since.

Opposition opposes. Look at what Labour whinged at National for during their time in power, and then have gone on to do more of the same or worse.

National didn't have access to the same information as the Government when they were having their say, in the reverse, they would have made broadly similar decisions, because it was really the only real option.

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