Chris Hipkins, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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Forums › Politics › Chris Hipkins, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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#3044153 3-Mar-2023 07:46

gzt: I'll need to address your points one at a time. It will come as no surprise that I disagree with many of your claims. Starting with rankings.

New Zealands actual international rankings are falling, because these rankings ARE based on research , publications, etc etc etc as well as how well the students get rated by other research/businesses who employ the graduates. These falling rankings will impact on NZ students getting jobs, PhD/Post Doctorate positions overseas.

In general it is very easy to see NZ university international rankings are not falling at all. In fact the trend is steady and sometimes startling improvements for NZ universities in those international rankings.

There is a major exception and that is where student to faculty ratio is a factor in ranking. As you yourself have advocated increased staffing I'm sure you will find no disagreement with that one.

I agree, University staff numbers are low. However increasing the staff numbers at this point will not increase the number of Maori getting into University. The increase in staff numbers has to be at Primary, Intermediate, and High school levels. Until Maori can even get to university they need an education that allows them to as well as a desire to continue learning.

Universities are shedding staff, closing down subject areas, simplifying courses. They are swapping academic standards for populist stuff that will not improve education.

sir1963

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#3044154 3-Mar-2023 07:47

GV27:

Auckland slid a bunch while I was there. It did not stop them cranking their fees to the maximum allowed under the fee maxima cap.

I have a friend who works as an associate professor in a nordic country. What she is paid would make a local lecturer's eyes bleed.

Senior lecturers used to be paid the same as back bench MPs.

GV27

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#3044158 3-Mar-2023 08:15

sir1963:

I agree, University staff numbers are low. However increasing the staff numbers at this point will not increase the number of Maori getting into University. The increase in staff numbers has to be at Primary, Intermediate, and High school levels. Until Maori can even get to university they need an education that allows them to as well as a desire to continue learning.

More specifically, a huge drop-off in Maori attending school at lower levels will actively unwind Maori achievement at higher institutions and de-normalise the idea of post-high school study for a whole generation.

Absolutely everything we have needs to be thrown at improving attendance for all levels of early education. The effects of this will take decades to wash-out and will eventually result in the same outcomes being delivered systematically if we can't get on top of it now. I would not be averse to this being considered a legitimate crisis, given the future implications of not resolving it urgently.

sir1963

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#3044169 3-Mar-2023 08:53

GV27:

sir1963:

I agree, University staff numbers are low. However increasing the staff numbers at this point will not increase the number of Maori getting into University. The increase in staff numbers has to be at Primary, Intermediate, and High school levels. Until Maori can even get to university they need an education that allows them to as well as a desire to continue learning.

More specifically, a huge drop-off in Maori attending school at lower levels will actively unwind Maori achievement at higher institutions and de-normalise the idea of post-high school study for a whole generation.

Absolutely everything we have needs to be thrown at improving attendance for all levels of early education. The effects of this will take decades to wash-out and will eventually result in the same outcomes being delivered systematically if we can't get on top of it now. I would not be averse to this being considered a legitimate crisis, given the future implications of not resolving it urgently.

I agree, and I also think meals (breakfast, lunch and tea), raincoats, shoes,books etc etc etc should be supplied in some areas.

But bastardising PBRF for virtue signalling does nothing to fix the actual problem. THAT makes me even more p!ssed off because it shows they know there is a problem they are just unwilling to do anything about it, except virtue signal.

johno1234

2805 posts

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#3044175 3-Mar-2023 09:19

GV27:

sir1963:

I agree, University staff numbers are low. However increasing the staff numbers at this point will not increase the number of Maori getting into University. The increase in staff numbers has to be at Primary, Intermediate, and High school levels. Until Maori can even get to university they need an education that allows them to as well as a desire to continue learning.

More specifically, a huge drop-off in Maori attending school at lower levels will actively unwind Maori achievement at higher institutions and de-normalise the idea of post-high school study for a whole generation.

Absolutely everything we have needs to be thrown at improving attendance for all levels of early education. The effects of this will take decades to wash-out and will eventually result in the same outcomes being delivered systematically if we can't get on top of it now. I would not be averse to this being considered a legitimate crisis, given the future implications of not resolving it urgently.

This.

It will require engagement with the parents. They're urban Maori, and likely disengaged with the tribal-affiliated Maori elite who operate billions in assets and millions in annual government spending programs that focus on things other than getting young Maori engaged in education.

GV27

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#3044183 3-Mar-2023 09:40

sir1963:

I agree, and I also think meals (breakfast, lunch and tea), raincoats, shoes,books etc etc etc should be supplied in some areas.

I've come around to the idea it should be the norm pretty much everywhere. Yes, the state is stepping in to fill a role good parents should be filling, but it's not a kid's fault if their parents aren't up to the task of given them the best crack at life, and some may simply not be able to due to working enough hours to keep a roof over their heads. Those kids might miss out too even though their parents are moving heaven and earth to the best of their abilities.

Frankly it's win win. The kids who need it get it. The kids who don't need it get it, but the parents of those kids can consider it a bonus on top of the work they are already doing to raise health and happy children. The older I get, and the longer it is since I became a father, the less I can stand the philosophical obsessions over arguments like this kind of thing. Just do it, let's get on with fixing things elsewhere and spend our energy on that instead.

gzt

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#3044309 3-Mar-2023 13:29

On school attendance

GV27: The effects of this will take decades to wash-out and will eventually result in the same outcomes being delivered systematically if we can't get on top of it now. I would not be averse to this being considered a legitimate crisis, given the future implications of not resolving it urgently.

As discussed before in a similar topic in some detail there are causes for concern and the same time the opposition parties are overstating the nature, cause and result and attribution of these issues. That is not unusual for opposition parties and is to be expected. The difference this time is the expected solutions. Bill English is not in the building. The answer is very likely to be bootcamps.

Wise

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gzt

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#3044311 3-Mar-2023 13:35

johno1234: They're urban Maori, and likely disengaged with the tribal-affiliated Maori elite who operate billions in assets and millions in annual government spending programs that focus on things other than getting young Maori engaged in education.

A significant amount of asset income is invested directly into education and student support by many if not all iwi authorities. I think you should get some numbers before making talkback radio type assumptions and running with them.

gzt

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#3044312 3-Mar-2023 13:41

GV27: Auckland slid a bunch while I was there. It did not stop them cranking their fees to the maximum allowed under the fee maxima cap.

I'm interested to know which particular ranking publisher that was.

GV27

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#3044322 3-Mar-2023 13:58

gzt:
GV27: Auckland slid a bunch while I was there. It did not stop them cranking their fees to the maximum allowed under the fee maxima cap.

I'm interested to know which particular ranking publisher that was.

Without giving away too much about how long I was there for or when, it was in the QS top 50 when I started and it was well out of the top 50 when I left 😅

sir1963

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#3044343 3-Mar-2023 15:55

GV27:

[

Without giving away too much about how long I was there for or when, it was in the QS top 50 when I started and it was well out of the top 50 when I left 😅

The University of Auckland was ranked 179th in the world in the 2020

johno1234

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#3044390 3-Mar-2023 17:56

gzt:
johno1234: They're urban Maori, and likely disengaged with the tribal-affiliated Maori elite who operate billions in assets and millions in annual government spending programs that focus on things other than getting young Maori engaged in education.

A significant amount of asset income is invested directly into education and student support by many if not all iwi authorities. I think you should get some numbers before making talkback radio type assumptions and running with them.

You say that providing no more support to your assertion than I did. Perhaps you could back yourself up before denigrating other’s opinions.

gzt

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#3044443 3-Mar-2023 22:13

johno1234: You say that providing no more support to your assertion than I did. Perhaps you could back yourself up before denigrating other’s opinions.

That is a good idea and I usually do ask for data. I apologize for jumping to the conclusion. If you wish, you make make the same apologies to Iwi.

gzt

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#3044446 3-Mar-2023 22:28

GV27: Without giving away too much about how long I was there for or when, it was in the QS top 50 when I started and it was well out of the top 50 when I left 😅

I have not yet looked up those over time. Suffice to say factors like student staff ratio play a larger role in some rankings than others. QS also allegedly has soft factors which some commentators regard as assessing how good the uni marketing is over actual active research and achievement. I agree that kind of recognition is important for some students internationally. NZ universities are very high in other respected ranking systems like Times Higher Education for instance.

gzt

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#3044450 3-Mar-2023 23:18

sir1963: Academia is all about research, about advancing the knowledge we have, about new knowledge and understanding. Its about teaching people how to learn, how to add new information, skills, and extend a job. Nothing we have in our modern lives would have been possible without research.

100%. This is the core of the issue and this is what the criteria of the fund were designed to remedy. Extending the research base. The allocation criteria are not designed to discourage anyone at all. The criteria are designed to move Te Ao Maori research towards being funded in proportion to the Maori population.

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