Chris Hipkins, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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#3046272 6-Mar-2023 12:12

GV27:

Technofreak:

Wages have definitely gone backwards over the years but I think one of the biggest drivers it is the need to have everything right now? Two cars, latest TV, flash toys etc.

I feel like focusing on things like this instead of documented huge increases in things like 'housing' or 'food inflation' are how you get bogged down in not doing anything about them.

Which seems to be very convenient if you're from the generation that leveraged to the hilt to buy as much housing for investment out from under a population that was trying to buy them as family homes. A mortgage on a single income isn't doable. So you need two. So you need two cars because you both have to get to work. Which means daycare. Which means more cost, before you've bought in the wages that haven't kept up with living costs in the first place.

But sure, iPhones, avocados, etc. Why not.

The properties I have are rented to people who can not buy.

Who will rent to Tertiary Students ?, Migrants ?, Broken families ?, School leavers ?, Transient workers ?

I bought rentals because there was no Kiwi saver back then. I had no employer putting into my retirement fund, nor a tax break.

I currently have a solo mum who was in very unsafe "emergency housing".

will this mindset continue to the people who do save more in Kiwi saver, they were greedy and go the best jobs, why should they retire like kings when people with nothing are worse off.

The politics of envy...

gzt

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#3046280 6-Mar-2023 12:35

Rikkitic: I feel that shoehorning women back into the kitchen is not right either.

Couples where that's possible at all tend to make stay at home partner decisions on the basis of the highest earning partner staying at work. As long as female incomes are significantly behind male incomes - on average you can predict that decision outcome will be the male working.

gzt

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#3046285 6-Mar-2023 12:40

Add that to the fact of fairly inflexible employment giving a statistically unlikely chance of both partners negotiating split hours and days.

GV27

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#3046297 6-Mar-2023 13:17

sir1963:

The politics of envy...

It's not envy to point out that people accumulating houses for investment takes them off the market for owner-occupiers to use as family homes.

Houses do just cease to exist if investors don't own them.

sir1963

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#3046299 6-Mar-2023 13:24

GV27:

sir1963:

The politics of envy...

It's not envy to point out that people accumulating houses for investment takes them off the market for owner-occupiers to use as family homes.

Houses do just cease to exist if investors don't own them.

So anyone who can not afford to buy lives where ?

You have failed top answer this question.

The availability of rentals decreases. People who own their own homes tend to have fewer people living in them, so the demand for houses actually increases.

GV27

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#3046307 6-Mar-2023 13:56

sir1963:

So anyone who can not afford to buy lives where ?

You have failed top answer this question.

The availability of rentals decreases. People who own their own homes tend to have fewer people living in them, so the demand for houses actually increases.

I've answered the question, you just don't like the answer.

You have fewer people competing for rentals as you have more outright owners, because houses are cheaper and it's easier to own.

Rents stay low and house prices stay low.

If investors mop up houses in a market that can't supply new ones fast enough leading to piss-taking capital gains then renters lose and aspiring FHBs miss out, unless they take on more debt.

Cue rising house prices. Which in turn drives up rents because 'yields'.

You may be a welcome outlier but there are many 'investors' who saw residential property as a quick-flip capital gain exercise and all it did was make everyone except for Australian bank shareholders poorer as a result.

sir1963

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#3046326 6-Mar-2023 15:03

GV27:

sir1963:

So anyone who can not afford to buy lives where ?

You have failed top answer this question.

The availability of rentals decreases. People who own their own homes tend to have fewer people living in them, so the demand for houses actually increases.

I've answered the question, you just don't like the answer.

You have fewer people competing for rentals as you have more outright owners, because houses are cheaper and it's easier to own.

Rents stay low and house prices stay low.

If investors mop up houses in a market that can't supply new ones fast enough leading to piss-taking capital gains then renters lose and aspiring FHBs miss out, unless they take on more debt.

Cue rising house prices. Which in turn drives up rents because 'yields'.

You may be a welcome outlier but there are many 'investors' who saw residential property as a quick-flip capital gain exercise and all it did was make everyone except for Australian bank shareholders poorer as a result.

Owning does not increase housing stocks. It does not decrease the demand for rentals as the number of people in each property is reduced.

Owning does not change the price for building new houses. Why would anyone sell a "cheap" house to build an expensive new one ?

The share market has traditionally outperformed the housing market

The GFC and Covid have given a very unusually long period of low interest rates which helped drive the market .

LOTS of houses were bought up, demolished and 2 new more expensive houses supplied. These are developers, not landlords.

Would me out bidding a FHB so my kids can be FHB in their preferred area and in a house they want make that OK ?

House prices will NOT stay low because of the costs of land, infrastructure, building, these thing push up house prices. If existing becomes cheaper then building, especially when considering land size, people will sop building, with a growing population that will only increase pressure.

FHB made up 22% of all home purchases 2022

People without the requisite income will never be homeowners.

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GV27

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#3046328 6-Mar-2023 15:07

sir1963:

People without the requisite income will never be homeowners.

And the requisite income has gone through the roof because...

sir1963

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#3046346 6-Mar-2023 16:22

GV27:

sir1963:

People without the requisite income will never be homeowners.

And the requisite income has gone through the roof because...

Inflation..... and the impacts of cheap money for an extended period due to the GFC and Covid.

And please let us know when in the last 100 years everyone has been able to afford home ownership.

To try and lay the blame on landlords is wrong, there was a LOT more happening during that period .

Kyanar

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#3046350 6-Mar-2023 16:35

sir1963:

The properties I have are rented to people who can not buy.

Who will rent to Tertiary Students ?, Migrants ?, Broken families ?, School leavers ?, Transient workers ?

I bought rentals because there was no Kiwi saver back then. I had no employer putting into my retirement fund, nor a tax break.

I currently have a solo mum who was in very unsafe "emergency housing".

will this mindset continue to the people who do save more in Kiwi saver, they were greedy and go the best jobs, why should they retire like kings when people with nothing are worse off.

The politics of envy...

Oh, please. You aren't some sort of grand hero, you bought houses to use as investments, you're renting them out. Congratulations. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it sure as hell isn't some sort of altruistic gesture, and it sure as hell isn't worthy of the praise you act like you deserve.

There will always be a need for properties available for rent. No-one with any sense should be denying that - seasonal workers, students, DV victims, families in the process of "resizing", and yes, those that simply cannot afford it. There's a place for a mix between the state and private sector to provide accomodation to those people dependent on need.

But it is being deliberately obtuse to pretend that previous generations have not leveraged upon leveraged to buy properties in mass quantities which has made the "can't afford to buy" group larger, as prices go up. You're either being wilfully blind or just plain lying if you really claim to believe that the largest intergenerational wealth transfer in history is due to inflation and COVID. Those two are contributing factors, but greed is the larger.

To be clear - I'm not accusing you of greed. I'm sure you've seen the stories of people who built property portfolios with dozens or hundreds of properties. Do you truly believe that they did this out of some sort of generosity? No.

tdgeek

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#3046428 6-Mar-2023 18:34

sir1963:

Inflation..... and the impacts of cheap money for an extended period due to the GFC and Covid.

And please let us know when in the last 100 years everyone has been able to afford home ownership.

To try and lay the blame on landlords is wrong, there was a LOT more happening during that period .

Without buying in to what I see as a 5 more pages of arguments. I owned my first property when 19, it was a rental with my mate, and thats occurred since. I and later, we were providing a home. When I bought our first live in home, I didnt tell the young wife, this place sucks, but I dont care as i will abuse the economy and rape it. It was just a home. Who is to blame? Back in 2000-ish National and Labour agreed there is an issue with housing prices, what happened? Nothing. Further back in the day the Govt promoted housing ownership, and built. They dont now, as we are a market driven economy. That is the problem, its supply and demand and all Govts do a 30 minute walkaway, like the spray products.

We never promoted building. Building is a pain. But we never did, lets just recycle. That is not a 2023 issue or a 2016 issue, its post 1970's. Plenty of opportunities to vote out and vote in someone who will revisit it, never happened.

On a side note, I have a mate who is in between the minimum income and average income. He used Kiwisaver (which did not exist back in the day) to get a leg up. He bought a tidy 2 bedder flat

Back to landlords. To be extreme, lets take landlords as leechers. Ban them. Then what?? As a past landlord, you are housing someone who cannot, or doesnt want to buy. I cannot see an issue.

gzt

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#3046430 6-Mar-2023 19:19

Imo a not insignificant factor was the international market in NZ housing assets until Labour began closing it off starting in 2017. Realistically, that market and the after effects of that market did not end overnight.

sir1963

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#3046433 6-Mar-2023 19:47

Kyanar:

sir1963:

The properties I have are rented to people who can not buy.

Who will rent to Tertiary Students ?, Migrants ?, Broken families ?, School leavers ?, Transient workers ?

I bought rentals because there was no Kiwi saver back then. I had no employer putting into my retirement fund, nor a tax break.

I currently have a solo mum who was in very unsafe "emergency housing".

will this mindset continue to the people who do save more in Kiwi saver, they were greedy and go the best jobs, why should they retire like kings when people with nothing are worse off.

The politics of envy...

Oh, please. You aren't some sort of grand hero, you bought houses to use as investments, you're renting them out. Congratulations. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it sure as hell isn't some sort of altruistic gesture, and it sure as hell isn't worthy of the praise you act like you deserve.

There will always be a need for properties available for rent. No-one with any sense should be denying that - seasonal workers, students, DV victims, families in the process of "resizing", and yes, those that simply cannot afford it. There's a place for a mix between the state and private sector to provide accomodation to those people dependent on need.

But it is being deliberately obtuse to pretend that previous generations have not leveraged upon leveraged to buy properties in mass quantities which has made the "can't afford to buy" group larger, as prices go up. You're either being wilfully blind or just plain lying if you really claim to believe that the largest intergenerational wealth transfer in history is due to inflation and COVID. Those two are contributing factors, but greed is the larger.

To be clear - I'm not accusing you of greed. I'm sure you've seen the stories of people who built property portfolios with dozens or hundreds of properties. Do you truly believe that they did this out of some sort of generosity? No.

https://fyi.org.nz/request/2838/response/9085/attach/html/3/signed%20response.pdf.html

104,375 landlords own ONE property

22,914 own 2-5 properties

2,455 own 6-20

457 own 21-50

488 own 51-200

293 own 201+

These figures are based on Bonds

The biggest landlords are

The government, Kainga Ora, who aims to own 25% of all rentals

Local governments, councils and so on. Wellington has over 2000

Charities, churches etc

Likes of the armed forces has about 1400 rentals

ANYONE who has a rental and collects a bond in on this list.

Bigger property investors would have been unlikely to buy new rentals , they would have seen the correction happening, interest rates rising etc. I did and I am not a big property owner.

I got the rentals for my retirement, there was no KiwiSaver then.

Invest in things you understand. I understand a house, the expenses, the maintenance, etc etc etc. I look at all the fools who lost money on Bitcoin and the other get rich quick schemes that they failed to understand, investing in the sharemarket, ultimately being the fall guys for the "professional" investors. My mum had shares in Goldcorp, and Brierlys and lost a large chunk of her retirement savings.

My kids will each end up having access to a freehold home when we are gone. By access I mean my intellectually handicapped son will be in a stable housing situation until he dies, the others will always have a safe haven, divorce, bad financial choices, whatever, they too will have someplace safe to come back to. When they are gone, everything gets sold and distributed to the grandkids and great grandkids. I know a number of parents who have set up things for their disabled child to ensure they have a reasonable life for the rest of their lives.

Looking after your family is not and has never been greed.

You chose a narrative that suits your outcome where all landlords are greedy, the opposite and equally wrong narrative is that all poor people are lazy.

Neither narrative is close to being the truth for the majority of those involved. Are there some in each extreme, yes, but they are the outlier, not the norm.

So yes I get p!ssed off when people frame landlords as greedy when the clear evidence is that they are NOT which is why the vast majority have 1 or 2 properties.

sir1963

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#3046439 6-Mar-2023 19:56

gzt: Imo a not insignificant factor was the international market in NZ housing assets until Labour began closing it off starting in 2017. Realistically, that market and the after effects of that market did not end overnight.

Foreign ownership...Xenophobia and racism all wrapped up into a nice wee blame ball.

People saw Asians buying houses and assumed they were foreign rather than being NZ citizens.

The people from overseas buying here were not competing with FHB, they were at the top end of the market, and at the very top end, the likes of Peter Thiel etc, they were buying to have a bolt hole well away from civilisation to hide in.

tdgeek

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#3046488 6-Mar-2023 20:21

sir1963:

So yes I get p!ssed off when people frame landlords as greedy when the clear evidence is that they are NOT which is why the vast majority have 1 or 2 properties.

100%. They provide a service. Yes there are greedy landlords, and greedy liquor store owners etc, etc. If the benefit of putting your own money into a rental wasnt worth it, then they will sell up to live in home owners, all good. Unless for various reasons people have to rent or want to rent. Then rents go up, who is to blame then? Perhaps landlords will just trade shares. Once the IPO is over that adds nothing to the economy, its just trading.

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