Nurses strike this thursday.

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#2055797 13-Jul-2018 14:40

Geektastic:
dejadeadnz: So Geektastic is now reduced to just spam bombing the thread with the same arguments that have zero basis in reality, I.e. trolling. Wonderful.

I'm expressing my view. I disagree with strike action of all kinds. I'm entitled to that view and disagreeing with you, and with any law relating to that, is not trolling.

But you're making stuff up in a (failed) attempt to support that view.

Geektastic

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#2055799 13-Jul-2018 14:41

Fred99:
Geektastic:
dejadeadnz: So Geektastic is now reduced to just spam bombing the thread with the same arguments that have zero basis in reality, I.e. trolling. Wonderful.

I'm expressing my view. I disagree with strike action of all kinds. I'm entitled to that view and disagreeing with you, and with any law relating to that, is not trolling.

But you're making stuff up in a (failed) attempt to support that view.

I'm making nothing up. What did I make up?

dejadeadnz

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#2055801 13-Jul-2018 14:42

Let's see: you've pretended that workers have no moral or legal right to complain about potentially unsafe working conditions and you've misrepresented the legal status of the Nurses' Code of Ethics. Would you like further humiliation?

dejadeadnz

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#2055812 13-Jul-2018 14:51

There's simply no reasonable basis for declaring that people who wish to complain of unsafe working conditions per se is doing something immoral as a matter of morals and in terms of the democratically and legitimately enacted legal framework. Note this doesn't mean people have an unlimited license to protest unsafe work conditions any way they see fit. In terms of a pure moral argument, no good/ethically-aware person would just stand by and say nothing if he or she is placed in an unsafe staffing environment where the unsafeness of that workplace affects the wellbeing and potential ability to stay alive on the part of people who are either entirely innocent or helpless (i.e. gravely ill) or both. Remember: I am going with your argument. In your binary little world, nurses either suck it up or leave. People are telling you that picking either option and just staying silent makes the people staying silent unethically uncaring towards people that they have freely chosen to assume an oath and duty to care for.

In terms of the legal argument, well, it's just crystal clear. If you don't like the law, get enough of your Victorian mates together (there won't be many in NZ, I can assure you) and get it changed if you fancy your chances.

Varkk

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#2055874 13-Jul-2018 15:46

Geektastic:

They are free to resign any time if their employer refuses to change things to something they find more suitable.

They are not free (or should not be) to inconvenience the people who pay their salaries as part of a spat with their employer, regardless of what century it is.

Striking is wrong generally and morally wrong in this instance in particular.

If a large number of nurses did resign instead of striking it would be a far worse outcome for patients etc. Instead they are striking to force action to improve the system. For many people in fields like healthcare it is not just a job to get money. They actually believe in what they are doing and are fighting to improve it.

dejadeadnz

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#2055888 13-Jul-2018 16:13

By the way, I would like to sincerely apologise to the Victorian era people and their descendents who may have been insulted by my comparison of them with Geektastic's views. Truth be told, the likes of John Stuart Mill and many others would also recoil at Geektastic's views. It's probably feudal England to which such views properly belong.

I sincerely apologise for my historical inaccuracy.

tdgeek

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#2055919 13-Jul-2018 18:09

Geektastic:

Varkk:

Geektastic:
Varkk:

The dispute isn't strictly about pay. The nurses are concerned about staffing levels and the structure of the health system. Which isn't really addressed in the offer they received.

Neither is their responsibility.

If it is leading to unsafe working conditions then it absolutely is. What are the nurses meant to do about understaffing? Suck it up and drag on? Or use their power through contract negotiations to get material improvements in their working conditions?

Suck it up like the rest of us have to.

By all means draw Management attention to issues. It is management's responsibility to deal with it, not the nurses.

I think the nurses sucking it up is far worse than no cream for the latte

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tdgeek

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#2055921 13-Jul-2018 18:11

Geektastic:
dejadeadnz:

Geektastic:

No, it isn't your responsibility. It is management's responsibility.

If you do not like how it impacts your life, get another job or get elected and change it. Don't just inconvenience the patients and tax payers to resolve your personal employment concerns.

Geektastic, would you like to have a look at a clock nearby and note that we are presently in the 21st century and no longer in Victorian times? Workers are not slaves.

1. Workers are legally entitled to strike. This is a right enshrined under the International Covenant for Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), to which NZ is a signatory. This right is enshrined under domestic legislation as well.

2. It is absolutely not merely management's responsibility to ensure that a workplace is safe. Again, you can thank the law that applies to you (you're not more special than anyone else) for this. Under the Health and Safety at Work Act 2015 (HSWA), although a PCBU (Persons Conducting a Business or Undertaking) owes the primary duty of care for workplace safety, workers also have the obligation to take reasonable care for their own health and safety, which will include raising issues around unsafe staffing levels with management. There are also provisions for worker health and safety representatives for workplaces of certain sizes and under the collective bargaining agreements between the various unions and the DHBs, workers are entitled to be consulted and heard on health and safety-related matters.

You're entitled to your own views (however much those should arouse feelings of disgust amongst any thinking person -- at least one would hope so). What you are not entitled to do is vehemently assert your legislation, reality, and moral principles-disregarding views as facts.

They are free to resign any time if their employer refuses to change things to something they find more suitable.

They are not free (or should not be) to inconvenience the people who pay their salaries as part of a spat with their employer, regardless of what century it is.

Striking is wrong generally and morally wrong in this instance in particular.

For 10 years they have had income eroded, and staffing diluted. Why? As unlike other occupations you cant walk away from the sick, as you can with the widget machine. What if you wanted an operation and were told, sorry, stand in line, be 6 years.

tdgeek

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#2055922 13-Jul-2018 18:12

Geektastic:
dejadeadnz: Stop spewing rubbish again. Breaching the Code would make a nurse liable to investigation by the Health and Disability Commissioner and to potential referral to the disciplinary tribunal by the Director of Proceedings. The Code actually has legal status.

The decisions to run hospitals are not made by nurses or their code of ethics.

If the requirements being made of them genuinely beach something which they consider more important, then surely none of them should ever be at work? Indeed, none of them should have signed employment contracts.

This is about money, anything else is just a smoke screen.

Its about under staffing

tdgeek

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#2055925 13-Jul-2018 18:18

dejadeadnz:

There's simply no reasonable basis for declaring that people who wish to complain of unsafe working conditions per se is doing something immoral as a matter of morals and in terms of the democratically and legitimately enacted legal framework. Note this doesn't mean people have an unlimited license to protest unsafe work conditions any way they see fit. In terms of a pure moral argument, no good/ethically-aware person would just stand by and say nothing if he or she is placed in an unsafe staffing environment where the unsafeness of that workplace affects the wellbeing and potential ability to stay alive on the part of people who are either entirely innocent or helpless (i.e. gravely ill) or both. Remember: I am going with your argument. In your binary little world, nurses either suck it upor leave. People are telling you that picking either option and just staying silent makes the people staying silent unethically uncaring towards people that they have freely chosen to assume an oath and duty to care for.

In terms of the legal argument, well, it's just crystal clear. If you don't like the law, get enough of your Victorian mates together (there won't be many in NZ, I can assure you) and get it changed if you fancy your chances.

And if [bolded] happened, who would be complaining??

tdgeek

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#2055926 13-Jul-2018 18:21

dejadeadnz:

By the way, I would like to sincerely apologise to the Victorian era people and their descendents who may have been insulted by my comparison of them with Geektastic's views. Truth be told, the likes of John Stuart Mill and many others would also recoil at Geektastic's views. It's probably feudal England to which such views properly belong.

I sincerely apologise for my historical inaccuracy.

No issue. Im not that old... and I'm not poor, and we have medical insurance, so in many ways it doesnt need to bother me. But at the end of the day, these people care and they have sucked it up for many years.

Care for the carers, they arent asking for the world.

tdgeek

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#2056046 14-Jul-2018 08:31

Interesting perspective on recent strikes

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/105440354/bypassed-by-the-economic-boom-workers-are-pushing-back

Short story is the so called rock star economy (thats false anyway) has eluded lower paid workers. Businesses are concerned that wages will rise. So businesses prefer to have lower paid workers so they can do well. Inflation has been low forever, but aspects of the basket of goods are not available to lower paid workers, so their own basket of goods is somewhat higher inflation.

To me, the spoils of a sound economy should be shared as should the tough times

MikeAqua

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#2057008 16-Jul-2018 11:59

tdgeek:

I think the nurses sucking it up is far worse than no cream for the latte

Well you've crossed a line now .. everyone knows there is no cream in a latte.

Mike

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#2057010 16-Jul-2018 12:07

MikeAqua:

tdgeek:

I think the nurses sucking it up is far worse than no cream for the latte

Well you've crossed a line now .. everyone knows there is no cream in a latte.

Lol, my bad. Not much of a coffee drinker!

Geektastic

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#2057260 16-Jul-2018 17:03

tdgeek:
dejadeadnz:

There's simply no reasonable basis for declaring that people who wish to complain of unsafe working conditions per se is doing something immoral as a matter of morals and in terms of the democratically and legitimately enacted legal framework. Note this doesn't mean people have an unlimited license to protest unsafe work conditions any way they see fit. In terms of a pure moral argument, no good/ethically-aware person would just stand by and say nothing if he or she is placed in an unsafe staffing environment where the unsafeness of that workplace affects the wellbeing and potential ability to stay alive on the part of people who are either entirely innocent or helpless (i.e. gravely ill) or both. Remember: I am going with your argument. In your binary little world, nurses either suck it upor leave. People are telling you that picking either option and just staying silent makes the people staying silent unethically uncaring towards people that they have freely chosen to assume an oath and duty to care for.

In terms of the legal argument, well, it's just crystal clear. If you don't like the law, get enough of your Victorian mates together (there won't be many in NZ, I can assure you) and get it changed if you fancy your chances.

And if [bolded] happened, who would be complaining??

So if offered a 20% pay rise they'd all refuse and stay out? Unlikely...

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