Should public libraries carry stuff like this?

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Forums › Politics › Should public libraries carry stuff like this?

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#3105122 17-Jul-2023 16:46

As an example of this, if Andrew Tate, currently facing trial in Romania for rape and human trafficking, wrote a book promoting his views which include the stuff he's on trial for, should a library carry it? Given how influential his views already are on young men, you can imagine what effect a proper book rather than a few videos could have - if you look at Alex Jones' book on Amazon it gets nearly 100% five-star reviews, so 100% of people who read this thing believe it and (presumably) will act on it.

It terms of "it's available on the Internet", so are videos of... well, apply Rule 34 as required, but that doesn't justify having the same stuff in a library.

neb

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#3105125 17-Jul-2023 16:52

Wombat1:
Say I am a university student and am doing a thesis on Alex Jones... I should be able to go to the library to get his book.

If you're at a university you probably can. You can also get Mein Kampf (original 1933 edition in German) if you like. And publications like Penthouse. And a bunch of other stuff that you won't find in any public library, because reading it for study and analysis is quite different to reading it because you believe the world is secretly controlled by Jews who need to be exterminated.

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#3105128 17-Jul-2023 16:59

Wombat1:

Say I am a university student and am doing a thesis on Alex Jones... I should be able to go to the library to get his book. Besides, the guy is a saint compared to some other autobiographies etc you will find at a library. If you ban his book, where do you stop?

You can do better than substituting terms. "The great reset" isn't an autobiography is it now. Also, if you're a student doing a thesis, go to a research library, not a public one.

Hello, Ground!

neb

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#3105129 17-Jul-2023 16:59

Wombat1:
Say I am a university student and am doing a thesis on Alex Jones... I should be able to go to the library to get his book.

Separate reply because it's a different topic: It's quite possible that someone has already done a thesis on him, in particular his book "Losing the News" (Oxford University Press, 2009) was quite influential. But you'd expect that from a Pulitzer prize-winning journalist.

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#3105130 17-Jul-2023 17:01

neb:
Wombat1:
Say I am a university student and am doing a thesis on Alex Jones... I should be able to go to the library to get his book.

If you're at a university you probably can. You can also get Mein Kampf (original 1933 edition in German) if you like. And publications like Penthouse. And a bunch of other stuff that you won't find in any public library, because reading it for study and analysis is quite different to reading it because you believe the world is secretly controlled by Jews who need to be exterminated.

Mein Kampf is in some public library’s. As I said there is far worse stuff than AJ.

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#3105131 17-Jul-2023 17:04

Kookoo:

freitasm:

Book censoring is politics.

That's a really meaningless statement. Censorship is a question of ethics, philosophy, pedagogy, sociology and psychology, religion, and yes - politics. But the key point is - excluding a book from a library on a basis of objective criteria is not censorship. Censorship is when you say "I don't like the idea, so I'm not including the book." or - "I don't like these words or phrases, so I'm going to have them erased or replaced."

Saying "This non-fiction book fails the test of quality or historical significance and I therefore won't spend any public money on it" isn't censorship - it's quality control.

Inventing an arbitrary standard that a significant amount of books already in libraries will fail to meet but it should only be applied to this book is not what libraries are for. If it's legal and people want to read it then it should be in a library. It's really that simple.

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#3105132 17-Jul-2023 17:18

Kookoo:
freitasm:

Book censoring is politics.

That's a really meaningless statement. Censorship is a question of ethics, philosophy, pedagogy, sociology and psychology, religion, and yes - politics. But the key point is - excluding a book from a library on a basis of objective criteria is not censorship. Censorship is when you say "I don't like the idea, so I'm not including the book." or - "I don't like these words or phrases, so I'm going to have them erased or replaced."

Saying "This non-fiction book fails the test of quality or historical significance and I therefore won't spend any public money on it" isn't censorship - it's quality control.

The Alex Jones title under discussion regardless of your personal view is historically relevant. Millions of people have some degree of belief in this type of idea (at least until they encounter reasoned discussion) to the extent there's some reason to believe this personality influenced an election to a lesser extent.

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gzt

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#3105135 17-Jul-2023 17:26

neb: As an example of this, if Andrew Tate, currently facing trial in Romania for rape and human trafficking, wrote a book promoting his views which include the stuff he's on trial for, should a library carry it? Given how influential his views already are on young men, you can imagine what effect a proper book rather than a few videos could have - if you look at Alex Jones' book on Amazon it gets nearly 100% five-star reviews, so 100% of people who read this thing believe it and (presumably) will act on it.

Yes it should be available. It's an open question if titles (hypothetical) like this should come with an insert providing some critical view. For instance there was an outcry a few years ago over a book called To Raise Up a Child or similar title in a library which advocated nasty stuff and actions in contravention to NZ law. I think there's a case for some kind of warning and substantial critical insert for those things.

There is a process in NZ for classifying something as an objectionable publication in which case it will be illegal for a library or anyone else to hold it.

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#3105136 17-Jul-2023 17:27

Handle9:
Inventing an arbitrary standard that a significant amount of books already in libraries will fail to meet but it should only be applied to this book is not what libraries are for. If it's legal and people want to read it then it should be in a library. It's really that simple.

Hey, I'm really keen to read volume 2 of the "Minutes of XXII assembly of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union". Why isn't it in my local library?! It's a travesty.

Hello, Ground!

Handle9

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#3105138 17-Jul-2023 17:31

Kookoo:
Handle9:

Inventing an arbitrary standard that a significant amount of books already in libraries will fail to meet but it should only be applied to this book is not what libraries are for. If it's legal and people want to read it then it should be in a library. It's really that simple.

Hey, I'm really keen to read volume 2 of the "Minutes of XXII assembly of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union". Why isn't it in my local library?! It's a travesty.

Here's how you ask for it

https://www.aucklandlibraries.govt.nz/pages/contact-ask-us-to-buy-it.aspx?page=Start

neb

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#3105140 17-Jul-2023 17:36

Wombat1: Mein Kampf is in some public library’s. As I said there is far worse stuff than AJ.

Mein Kampf is complete drivel, that book is pretty much self-limiting in that I can't imagine anyone who could get through more than a few dozen pages of it. I'd go so far as to say it should be mandatory reading for neo-nazis as a form of punishment.

AJ on the other hand is very beguiling, which makes his stuff far more dangerous than Mein Krampf.

Kookoo

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#3105141 17-Jul-2023 17:41

Handle9:
Here's how you ask for it

https://www.aucklandlibraries.govt.nz/pages/contact-ask-us-to-buy-it.aspx?page=Start&nb
sp;

I know. That's the whole point - the library should have the ability to decline such requests using objective criteria. We can argue on what the criteria should be, but not having any results in waste of public money.

Hello, Ground!

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#3105142 17-Jul-2023 17:42

neb:
Wombat1: Mein Kampf is in some public library’s. As I said there is far worse stuff than AJ.

Mein Kampf is complete drivel, that book is pretty much self-limiting in that I can't imagine anyone who could get through more than a few dozen pages of it. I'd go so far as to say it should be mandatory reading for neo-nazis as a form of punishment.

AJ on the other hand is very beguiling, which makes his stuff far more dangerous than Mein Krampf.

There are plenty of other books which can be used as examples. How far down this rabbit hole do you want to go?

I take it you have read both books? Or is that an opinion based on not reading it at all?

Handle9

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#3105169 17-Jul-2023 18:09

Kookoo:
Handle9:

Here's how you ask for it

https://www.aucklandlibraries.govt.nz/pages/contact-ask-us-to-buy-it.aspx?page=Start&nb
sp;

I know. That's the whole point - the library should have the ability to decline such requests using objective criteria. We can argue on what the criteria should be, but not having any results in waste of public money.

They do have criteria and always have.

https://www.aucklandlibraries.govt.nz/Documents/Auckland%20Libraries%20Collection%20Development%20Policy%202020.pdf

johno1234

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#3105188 17-Jul-2023 19:25

Rikkitic:
johno1234:

There has to be a very high bar to censorship. Being "toxic" is too imprecise.

This argument has gone on for years in reference to art vs pornography. The principle is the same.

It is quite possible to achieve a consensus opinion without a precise definition. A large majority of any random collection of people can agree that something is or is not offensive without really being able to explain why. Likewise, a jury of one's peers can agree that Jones fails even the most rudimentary sniff test. So don't ban him or string him up (tempting as that might be) but do put his spewings in the section marked 'unwholesome'. It is a good common sense solution.

If you were the censor Jones would be banned already and bugger consensus. Where does that stop? Next thing you will ban David Seymour because you consider him toxic. The fact that people read Jones proves there is no consensus. Your sniff test should not apply to others.

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