Christopher Luxon, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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Forums › Politics › Christopher Luxon, New Zealand Prime Minister 2023

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#3183337 18-Jan-2024 08:56

GV27:

I'm still convinced that the main motivation for undergrounding was to enable the need for tunnels under the Harbour, or at least a continuation of work programs relating to them.

And I still don't know why we would do that ... a tunnel is (obviously) less visible than a bridge but you can make a pretty bridge and it's vastly cheaper than a tunnel. It's also arguably much safer than a long tunnel in regards to emergencies.

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quickymart

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#3183370 18-Jan-2024 09:50

I seem to recall a report a few years ago that a second harbour bridge crossing was suggested, landing at somewhere near Northcote Point, but the community there got all up in arms about it saying they would end up being "divided". Can't find the original story on the Herald anymore, but this one from 2004 talks about the need for a second crossing:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/report-gives-harbour-bridge-a-reprieve/YTG6USTKWIAKYLPPN4EDQRPJIU/

ezbee

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#3183372 18-Jan-2024 09:53

A Swedish company would be quite welcome to bid at 1/4 the cost, why did they not do so ?

I expect the difference is the difference between having wide avenues you just have to lay track down with decades of pre planning.

The costs are the total program costs which includes acquisition of some 'very' expensive real-estate.
Its dramatically different if you are just laying track on wide avenues.

Probably complicated works so they could do construction around delicate heritage foundations that impose a narrow workspace.
There may be some issues for compensating businesses that are paying rent/rates and can't operate for year or more.

Light rail, given the pitiful width of Auckland roads.
Extending underground would make sense in most built up bits where traffic will just be queuing behind the stop start trains.
Construction may also be simplified reducing uncertainty of dealing with this and objections to the in the most heritage and built-up part of the route.

Personally, if heritage people would accept that buildings can be demolished and ones with modern insides built a bit further back.
Heritage facia would be good enough. Retain character and look. I expect this is unacceptable, however.

Waterview had arguments about extending underground with associated costs. In the end it was the better option.
Remembering long, at times bitter fight, to acquire housing in nice areas people very much wanted to keep.

Blame past councils for not designating wide main corridors like cities not too far away from us have.
You see a lot of major works in Melbourne/Sydney are underground now, as even they ran out of space.

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#3183434 18-Jan-2024 10:05

What about overground? Chicago has had that for years. Just think of the Blues Brothers. Or Seattle with its monorail. Just think of the Simpsons!

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GV27

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#3183437 18-Jan-2024 10:11

ezbee:

Light rail, given the pitiful width of Auckland roads.

I think we can conclusively say the street width on Dominion Road was not the issue for trams:

https://teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/15901/dominion-road

The real issue is that no one wants to have the argument region-wide about how parking on arterials is not a Divine Right and that maybe, just maybe, reallocating space within the road corridor is the answer, not locking ourselves into the mindset that we have to widen roads before we can change the way they are used.

The benefits of tunneling were not worth the dollars it spiked the project cost to, and it also came with considerable downsides for accessibility; the ALR route they eventually settled also ended up by-passing Mangere Town Centre in favour of a motorway alignment and thus abandoned one of the key aims of the project, which was better connections for the South West. And North West, where tunneling should never have been on the cards at all.

It was a mess, it should have been the kind of surface light rail that every other modern country manages to build with little issue and there is no good reason why NZ should be multiple times more for this kind of system when built overseas other than blasted exceptionalism.

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#3183439 18-Jan-2024 10:12

Rikkitic:

What about overground? Chicago has had that for years. Just think of the Blues Brothers. Or Seattle with its monorail. Just think of the Simpsons!

Finally, something to put the North Shore on the map!

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#3183441 18-Jan-2024 10:15

GV27:

I think we can conclusively say the street width on Dominion Road was not the issue for trams:

https://teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/15901/dominion-road

The real issue is that no one wants to have the argument region-wide about how parking on arterials is not a Divine Right and that maybe, just maybe, reallocating space within the road corridor is the answer, not locking ourselves into the mindset that we have to widen roads before we can change the way they are used.

The benefits of tunneling were not worth the dollars it spiked the project cost to, and it also came with considerable downsides for accessibility; the ALR route they eventually settled also ended up by-passing Mangere Town Centre in favour of a motorway alignment and thus abandoned one of the key aims of the project, which was better connections for the South West. And North West, where tunneling should never have been on the cards at all.

It was a mess, it should have been the kind of surface light rail that every other modern country manages to build with little issue and there is no good reason why NZ should be multiple times more for this kind of system when built overseas other than blasted exceptionalism.

Yeah, there's a time for consultation and time to exhibit leadership and do something that might be unpopular in the short term but in the long term will be forgotten once the benefits are demonstrated. Unfortunately the Labour government chose to spend all their political capital tying co-governance to water reforms. Not that I disagree with co-governance (and I note that it was the Key government who kicked off this round of it, signing UNDRIP) but it meant that there was nothing left to do anything else such as 'No, Auckland, we don't care if utebros want to park on Dominion Road, you're having a tram there instead.'

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ockel

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#3183551 18-Jan-2024 14:55

danepak: A Swedish friend of mine who works in the public transport sector in Stockholm sent the following (translated via Google Translate);

Don't know which economists they have hired to calculate the costs but they are unusually high. After inflation, I would say that it might cost about 1.5 billion Swedish kronor per km of subway and the NZ dollar is about the same as the Australian one, so 4 - 5 times more. Building a tramway is therefore not nearly as expensive, even if part of it was supposed to be run in a tunnel. To claim that the costs in NZ would be more than 5 times higher than in Sweden I find completely unreasonable. The consultants hired to come up with these values must be politically appointed with the task of coming to the conclusion that it will be damn expensive. Sad that NZ is locking in fossil fuels for public transport :(

https://www.railwaygazette.com/light-rail-and-tram/government-cancels-auckland-light-rail-project/65702.article?ID=z9xqh~9jxqt9~jfjrx~W4ik~Ky0gk&utm_campaign=RG-METRO- REPORT-RBW%20170124-JM&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_content=RG-METRO-REPORT-RBW%20170124-JM

Did your friend read the NZ Herald article of 1 December https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/city-rail-link-boss-sean-sweeney-slams-new-zealand-infrastructure-costs/LCRNBDHRRFEIHLE4EJSOIXI2WE/ (summarised here for those without access to the graphics https://tuesdayclub.nz/infrastructure-costs-in-new-zealand/ )

It suggests metro costs in Sweden at slightly more than US$200m per km (or $2bn kronor) based on a 75% tunnel/25% overland mix. We are an outlier in terms of cost but not too dissimilar (apparently) to the UK or Qatar. The NZ number is based on the cost of the CRL. Not sure where it sits for Waterview, ALR or WHC.

gzt

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#3183648 18-Jan-2024 19:22

My practical solution is build a concrete encasement - over all the existing overground line - and call it a tunnel. No tunneling. It will be cost effective.

Now, ahem a few underpasses needed for cars here and there. Now trains go at high speed (handwave). No slow down for crossings. No more crossings, big safety win.

Put a cycle track on the flat top of the encasement. Add a few cafes up there. Done.

quickymart

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#3184120 19-Jan-2024 17:48

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/507019/pm-christopher-luxon-sets-the-scene-for-his-mps-let-s-go-get-this-thing-done

Asked what his metric for when New Zealand is on track, he said: "Well, we'll never get there, right? We've got to keep striving hard to keep improving New Zealand ... we're going to continue to keep perfecting our country and that is the work of all governments.

He later clarified the government would indeed get New Zealand "back on track", saying we would know when the economy was creating more prosperity, when children were "actually competitive with kids from around the world in terms of the quality of their education", and when crime was at lower levels.

He sure is big on the manager-speak, isn't he? Even though he's no longer running an airline.

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#3184125 19-Jan-2024 18:09

quickymart:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/507019/pm-christopher-luxon-sets-the-scene-for-his-mps-let-s-go-get-this-thing-done

Asked what his metric for when New Zealand is on track, he said: "Well, we'll never get there, right? We've got to keep striving hard to keep improving New Zealand ... we're going to continue to keep perfecting our country and that is the work of all governments.

He later clarified the government would indeed get New Zealand "back on track", saying we would know when the economy was creating more prosperity, when children were "actually competitive with kids from around the world in terms of the quality of their education", and when crime was at lower levels.

He sure is big on the manager-speak, isn't he? Even though he's no longer running an airline.

Do you have an objection to trying to make “the economy was creating more prosperity, when children were "actually competitive with kids from around the world in terms of the quality of their education", and when crime was at lower levels.?”

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#3184152 19-Jan-2024 21:30

Not at all. But let's see him walk the walk, we already know he can talk the talk.

ezbee

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#3184254 19-Jan-2024 22:06

I guess he has learned re Labours mistakes of mentioning specific metrics.
You turn any advance or improvement into a failure, because you let your aspiration run away with itself.

Though I bet all the lower levels of Air New Zealand surely had to sign up to numbers, metrics and KPI's come budgeting time.
No company I ever worked for accepted' I'll do better', twas numbers, charts and spreadsheets, and details of how.

Anyways I guess National, ACT especially will be giving Waitangi a miss.
Winston always unpredictable could do the 'bad penny' you never know.

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#3184306 20-Jan-2024 07:50

Handle9:

Do you have an objection to trying to make “the economy was creating more prosperity, when children were "actually competitive with kids from around the world in terms of the quality of their education", and when crime was at lower levels.?”

No, but the hand-wavy wouldn't fly from the Ardern government, according to them, did it?

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Handle9

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#3184310 20-Jan-2024 08:09

SaltyNZ:
Handle9:

Do you have an objection to trying to make “the economy was creating more prosperity, when children were "actually competitive with kids from around the world in terms of the quality of their education", and when crime was at lower levels.?”

No, but the hand-wavy wouldn't fly from the Ardern government, according to them, did it?

The 100,000 kiwibuild homes and light rail up Dominion road in 4 years they were going to build put paid to accepting handwavy from them.

Arderns government got plenty of rope at the start, as it seems Luxon is getting from most, but not from this thread.

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