Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)

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#2980797 11-Oct-2022 23:20

I don't think those 10,000 people in emergency housing are phoney, nor the 36,000 on hospital waiting lists are phoney. nor the 12% of school leavers with no NCEA qualification are phoney.

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Technofreak

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#2980802 11-Oct-2022 23:34

elpenguino:
Technofreak:

I'm all for looking after our planet but why do we need to lead?

Lol, as in, I'd do anything to lose weight except diet or exercise?

No doubt you think pissing into the wind is a good idea as well.

I don't see any point in doing something has no meaningful benefit and in fact is likely to be counterproductive to achieving the original aims. Case in point the decision not to mine and burn our own coal but instead import dirtier coal from overseas because that way on paper we are closer to meeting our emission targets but the world is worse off. Dumb dumb dumb.

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tdgeek

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#2980821 12-Oct-2022 07:28

Rikkitic:

Someone has to go first. Why is it such a big problem if we try to set an example? That is something to be admired. Who cares if we are too insignificant to make a difference? At least we are trying to do the right thing. I think your argument against this is a phoney one. It is the same one hauled out every time someone wants an excuse to do nothing.

We aren't though. A Kiwi is the same as an American and most other first world citizens if we use cars and indirectly emit cow burps when we have a burger or a glass of milk

If 5 million Kiwi's don't make a difference, neither does 5 Million Los Angeles citizens

sir1963

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#2980822 12-Oct-2022 07:31

Technofreak:

I'm all for looking after our planet but why do we need to lead? We might think we're important but in reality we are such a small player the rest of the world won't notice any effect no matter what we do. Let's sort our bigger issues out first.

If I took a bag of household rubbish and just dumped in on a farm ( pimples worth...or less) the farmer would be rightly upset and demand I clean my mess up, and if I did not/could not they would expect me to pay to have someone else clean it up for me, take me to court even.

Well thats all farmers are being asked to do, pay for someone to clean their mess up, because they can't.

That mess is ruining other peoples crops, causing slips, eroding the foreshore, damaging our native flora and fauna. And when that happens to them, blocking roads, floods, they expect the rest of us to pay to fix it. Likewise for droughts, they expect financial assistance. Global warming is going to make both of these situations worse.

The argument of "I" should not be punished because "Someone else" is worse, is garbage.

Should boy racers be "OK" because they are not ram raiding jewellery stores ?

Having farmers held to the same standard as other polluters is fair and reasonable, they are NOT being picked on.

Farming and tourism are at their peak, we need better, smarter, less invasive and more profitable options.

In real, inflation adjusted terms "peak" export value for meat was in the early 1900s, ever since then $ per ton has fallen in real terms, its just that we have made more of it that it looks as though there has been real growth.

sir1963

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#2980823 12-Oct-2022 07:36

Technofreak: I don't think those 10,000 people in emergency housing are phoney, nor the 36,000 on hospital waiting lists are phoney. nor the 12% of school leavers with no NCEA qualification are phoney.

Yeah the "Look aver there" approach does NOT change the fact that we STILL need to do something about farming/global warming.

Perhaps the money spent on drought relief , flood controls, rebuilding roads, etc etc could be better spent on those other problems ?

Those other problems are funded by general taxes, and I am personally against any tax reductions because of them. But that does not stop me form also wanting things done to fix other issues .

GV27

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#2980824 12-Oct-2022 08:10

There's zero chance, repeat, zero chance that anything we do in NZ is going to have a meaningful impact on our weather events if other nations are going to continue as they are. But we can make ourselves a lot poorer in the process trying to convince ourselves that's how it works. This is essentially the farm subsidies argument all over again. The effects of farming intensification on waterways, however, is both local and measurable and totally independent of what other countries do.

My main concern is the positioning of the emissions as essential to drive ethical purchasing of agricultural products when the most logical endpoint of that thinking is that people consume less meant and dairy overall. Markets like the EU keep driving for things like food miles and they're another form of protectionism dressed up as environmentalism and this kind of levy won't move NZ physically closer to Europe or other key markets.

Frankly we should have treated reductions in emissions as a by-product of waterways reform and doubled-down on that instead. We're going to end-up with climate-change induced erosion no matter how many cows we cut out of the national herd, whether it's caused by us or someone else, and having the money to fund decent mitigation plans is better than having the same problem and poorer regional centres.

sen8or

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#2980827 12-Oct-2022 08:29

Technofreak:

I'm all for looking after our planet but why do we need to lead? We might think we're important but in reality we are such a small player the rest of the world won't notice any effect no matter what we do. Let's sort our bigger issues out first.

Because Ms Ardern has lost some shine in recent months globally and needs to up her political capital in her bid for a position on the UN

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sir1963

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#2980832 12-Oct-2022 09:00

GV27:

There's zero chance, repeat, zero chance that anything we do in NZ is going to have a meaningful impact on our weather events if other nations are going to continue as they are. But we can make ourselves a lot poorer in the process trying to convince ourselves that's how it works. This is essentially the farm subsidies argument all over again. The effects of farming intensification on waterways, however, is both local and measurable and totally independent of what other countries do.

My main concern is the positioning of the emissions as essential to drive ethical purchasing of agricultural products when the most logical endpoint of that thinking is that people consume less meant and dairy overall. Markets like the EU keep driving for things like food miles and they're another form of protectionism dressed up as environmentalism and this kind of levy won't move NZ physically closer to Europe or other key markets.

Frankly we should have treated reductions in emissions as a by-product of waterways reform and doubled-down on that instead. We're going to end-up with climate-change induced erosion no matter how many cows we cut out of the national herd, whether it's caused by us or someone else, and having the money to fund decent mitigation plans is better than having the same problem and poorer regional centres.

As always, doing nothing is worse than doing something.

A small improvement is better than zero.

Someone has to lead the way, and everyone else is waiting for someone to step forward first, it may as well be us.

Only then do we have the right to criticise other countries for their lack of progress.

We need more companies like F&P healthcare, Rakon, Rocket Labs, Weta Workshops, Tait, Xero, Various Gaming developers, etc etc etc more than we need more farming.

They earn more per employee, pollute less, take up far less land area.

sir1963

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#2980834 12-Oct-2022 09:04

sen8or:

Technofreak:

I'm all for looking after our planet but why do we need to lead? We might think we're important but in reality we are such a small player the rest of the world won't notice any effect no matter what we do. Let's sort our bigger issues out first.

Because Ms Ardern has lost some shine in recent months globally and needs to up her political capital in her bid for a position on the UN

ahh...conspiracy....

Perhaps it more that too many other things have been left/ignored during covid and they actually have no plans to fix these things and are just following populist ideology trying to shore up votes so they remain the government.

Nationals ideas for tax cuts are worse though, meaning LESS money to fix any of the other issues.

I am probably, for the first time ever in 40 years, not going to vote , because I find policies in all parties objectionable.

sen8or

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#2980838 12-Oct-2022 09:16

Environmentalism is a very easy platform to stand on, no one in their right mind is going to argue that we shouldn't do our part to improve what we can, but, when environmentalism is monetized and used for political gain, then I have an issue with the mechanisms and measures used.

Ideology needs to be tempered against pragmatism and reality, with our current Government structure, this is not happening and our current FIGJAM Government is bumbling from one poorly thought out policy to the next.

sir1963

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#2980839 12-Oct-2022 09:23

sen8or:

Environmentalism is a very easy platform to stand on, no one in their right mind is going to argue that we shouldn't do our part to improve what we can, but, when environmentalism is monetized and used for political gain, then I have an issue with the mechanisms and measures used.

Ideology needs to be tempered against pragmatism and reality, with our current Government structure, this is not happening and our current FIGJAM Government is bumbling from one poorly thought out policy to the next.

Without money, nothing happens.

And perhaps your ideology is just as bad.

Reality is our insurances are increasing because of global warming

Reality is, someone need to be first

Reality is doing nothing is always worse than waiting until its too late

Reality is, there are better ways to make money than farming.

Reality is, per ton, in inflation adjusted terms, the price we have been getting has been falling for 100 years

Reality is, reality is catching up with us all.,

GV27

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#2981865 12-Oct-2022 10:26

sir1963:

We need more companies like F&P healthcare, Rakon, Rocket Labs, Weta Workshops, Tait, Xero, Various Gaming developers, etc etc etc more than we need more farming.

They earn more per employee, pollute less, take up far less land area.

They also require employees who are fed and don't suffer from insecurity around things like the basics of life, like food. Remember, competitive organisations compete for talent. NZ is a hard sell if the housing is going to be expensive, the food is going to be expensive and the quality of life on offer is lower too. 'The Greater Good' as a moral exercise to justify crappy policy only works if the 'good' actually exists.

Taking the knife to rural economic centres doesn't just impact the polluters, it will impact on the good ones who are doing their best to play their part.

Stuff doesn't just appear on the supermarket shelves by magic, nor do people have an infinite budget to mop up food that costs more and more.

Talk about the environment is cheap, but putting a price talk on what the kind of drastic action people who talk in platitudes want to see happen is a lot harder.

Rikkitic

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#2981876 12-Oct-2022 10:47

GV27:

They also require employees who are fed and don't suffer from insecurity around things like the basics of life, like food. Remember, competitive organisations compete for talent. NZ is a hard sell if the housing is going to be expensive, the food is going to be expensive and the quality of life on offer is lower too. 'The Greater Good' as a moral exercise to justify crappy policy only works if the 'good' actually exists.

Taking the knife to rural economic centres doesn't just impact the polluters, it will impact on the good ones who are doing their best to play their part.

Stuff doesn't just appear on the supermarket shelves by magic, nor do people have an infinite budget to mop up food that costs more and more.

Talk about the environment is cheap, but putting a price talk on what the kind of drastic action people who talk in platitudes want to see happen is a lot harder.

You make valid points which I don't disagree with, I just reject the argument that we shouldn't make an effort because it won't really make a difference.

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Technofreak

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#2981883 12-Oct-2022 10:58

tdgeek:

Rikkitic:

Someone has to go first. Why is it such a big problem if we try to set an example? That is something to be admired. Who cares if we are too insignificant to make a difference? At least we are trying to do the right thing. I think your argument against this is a phoney one. It is the same one hauled out every time someone wants an excuse to do nothing.

We aren't though. A Kiwi is the same as an American and most other first world citizens if we use cars and indirectly emit cow burps when we have a burger or a glass of milk

If 5 million Kiwi's don't make a difference, neither does 5 Million Los Angeles citizens

When the farmers in the US (and the rest of the world where we sell our produce) are subject to the same world leading emissions schemes then I have no problem with our farmers being subject such schemes.

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sir1963

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#2981884 12-Oct-2022 10:59

GV27:

sir1963:

We need more companies like F&P healthcare, Rakon, Rocket Labs, Weta Workshops, Tait, Xero, Various Gaming developers, etc etc etc more than we need more farming.

They earn more per employee, pollute less, take up far less land area.

They also require employees who are fed and don't suffer from insecurity around things like the basics of life, like food. Remember, competitive organisations compete for talent. NZ is a hard sell if the housing is going to be expensive, the food is going to be expensive and the quality of life on offer is lower too. 'The Greater Good' as a moral exercise to justify crappy policy only works if the 'good' actually exists.

Taking the knife to rural economic centres doesn't just impact the polluters, it will impact on the good ones who are doing their best to play their part.

Stuff doesn't just appear on the supermarket shelves by magic, nor do people have an infinite budget to mop up food that costs more and more.

Talk about the environment is cheap, but putting a price talk on what the kind of drastic action people who talk in platitudes want to see happen is a lot harder.

And yet, if we went high tech for our income we would need LESS farming because we will no longer need to export 90% of what we produce.

THAT is the reality, we can produce MORE than we need with 90% less farming. We could then get back to planting Native forests which will ALSO improve the environment.

And NONE of your arguments give any justification why our biggest polluter should no pay up, "doing their best" is still not non polluting, thats like a drunk driver claiming he has reduced his driving drunk by 60%.

Apple computers quarterly profit is more than NZs GDP.

Can we be Apple, no. But we can be 100+ F&P healthcares etc.

Talk about the environment is a LOT cheaper if just talk and we do nothing.

We need to transition away from primary produce and tourism to better paying jobs that create a LOT less pollution.

Farming is NOT sacrosanct any more than people who bred horses for pulling farm equipment were.

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