Our PM Jacinda Ardern (and the government)

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#3006730 7-Dec-2022 11:05

sir1963:

There is no "appear to" about it, it should be the world Number 1 concern , not just more kicking the can down the road to make it the next governments problem.

You can think it's a serious issue, but it's absurd to think it's more important than families and kids spending years at a time in unfit-for-purpose emergency accommodation, or hospitals where aren't enough staff in emergency departments, literacy, numeracy and attendance for children, especially those in poverty, etc.

You aren't going to have a meaningful society to save from climate change if we don't actually start making inroads in those other bits - you sure as hell won't have the kind of knowledge base and technocratic society you need to implement and manage your climate response either.

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#3006741 7-Dec-2022 11:32

I will always happily concede that the science behind climate change is well over my head, but the obsessiveness, politicization and monetization of it is what gets up my nose.

You can call it a "fake argument" until the cows come home, but it doesn't change the fact that our actual impact on global greenhouse gasses is barely more than the margin of error, any changes we make are unlikely to influence the climate in any meaningful way. Will us making these changes start a chain of events that lead the larger countries to rethink their climate policies, the zealots will tell you yes, the pragmatists, not so sure.

I will also happily agree that we should be doing something, as pointed out above, we can't just keep kicking the can down the road for it to be the next generations problem, but that should be tempered against the needs and priorities of today, what those needs/priorities are are very much dependent on who is screaming the loudest.

marmel

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#3006744 7-Dec-2022 11:39

sen8or:

I will always happily concede that the science behind climate change is well over my head, but the obsessiveness, politicization and monetization of it is what gets up my nose.

You can call it a "fake argument" until the cows come home, but it doesn't change the fact that our actual impact on global greenhouse gasses is barely more than the margin of error, any changes we make are unlikely to influence the climate in any meaningful way. Will us making these changes start a chain of events that lead the larger countries to rethink their climate policies, the zealots will tell you yes, the pragmatists, not so sure.

I will also happily agree that we should be doing something, as pointed out above, we can't just keep kicking the can down the road for it to be the next generations problem, but that should be tempered against the needs and priorities of today, what those needs/priorities are are very much dependent on who is screaming the loudest.

The main issue I have with recent climate change initiatives is that it will likely increase overall global emissions due to the lower carbon footprint NZ farming creates compared to most overseas producers. We appear to be implementing the taxes on NZ farmers to be seen to do the right thing, rather than for any practical purpose. Labour/Greens appear to be stuck on what proportion of overall NZ carbon emissions agriculture produces as opposed to looking at this on a global scale and the actual overall outcome.

ezbee

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#3006755 7-Dec-2022 12:32

marmel
What's not often mentioned though is that many/most of the markets in countries that can pay best prices.
Well they have powerful local farming lobbies there looking for pressure points to attack NZ imports. To tarrif and limit volumes.

Therefore you can bet that if we do not make some moves on environment we will be feeding ammunition for these pressure groups.
It matters not if pot is calling kettle black when farmers in export countries are arguing to pressure their own politicians to be patriotic.

Being seen to do the right thing can be a good counter.
It's often the case in Marketing, its why companies spend a lot of greenwashing.

If we develop useful technologies and practices along the way so much the better.
It's a case of balance, how hard we go.

networkn

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#3006756 7-Dec-2022 12:40

Rikkitic:

I wasn't accusing him of being wrong. Just of shrieking.

I wasn't shrieking, that's an unkind and personal characterisation you chose because you don't have a cohesive counterargument against the criticism leveled at someone you refuse to believe has faults (despite the occasional insincere suggestion otherwise).

You could simply have agreed that Ardern provides far too much leniency in dealing with MP's incompetence. Rather than do that, you chose to be insulting and rude in an effort to divert attention from the uncomfortable facts.

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#3006757 7-Dec-2022 12:43

Rikkitic:

This argument keeps getting dished up and I think it is a fake one. It is just an excuse to do nothing. If NZ actually did set an example, that would certainly have an international effect. It might actually set something in motion that would accumulate over time, encouraging and shaming others to join. Every avalanche starts with one small piece coming loose. Why shouldn't we be the first? Oh, it might cost us money. Better crawl back in the cave then. Let us hope someone braver and better than us does something.

I do not think we are so important, significant or even noticeable that if our response improves it will lead to anyone else following suit.

Having said that, I believe regardless of that, we should do our part and reduce our emissions as much as practical, because it's about doing our part.

We shouldn't however, kid ourselves about the global impact of that, but it does give us a moral grounding by which to speak out about reducing emissions and encourage other countries to do the same.

I don't buy for a second the argument that we need not do anything because the impact is 'insignificant'.

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sen8or

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#3006807 7-Dec-2022 13:25

And more $ go out the door to a select few

Govt giving millions to Ruapehu Alpine Lifts to 'support development of alternative commercial solution' (msn.com)

What an absolute crock

sir1963

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#3006809 7-Dec-2022 13:29

GV27:

sir1963:

There is no "appear to" about it, it should be the world Number 1 concern , not just more kicking the can down the road to make it the next governments problem.

You can think it's a serious issue, but it's absurd to think it's more important than families and kids spending years at a time in unfit-for-purpose emergency accommodation, or hospitals where aren't enough staff in emergency departments, literacy, numeracy and attendance for children, especially those in poverty, etc.

You aren't going to have a meaningful society to save from climate change if we don't actually start making inroads in those other bits - you sure as hell won't have the kind of knowledge base and technocratic society you need to implement and manage your climate response either.

We should be preparing for drought, flood, sea level changes, this will impact all agricultural areas

We should be preparing for invasive species (eg mosquitos with topical diseases) and the health impacts this will bring

We should be preparing for shifting whole communities away from foreshore erosion and flooding

We should be preparing for how this impacts infrastructure (roading, power, telecoms, water, sewerage, etc etc), look at the isolating even the Kaikoura earthquake caused

How do we farm, transport goods, have emergency services, have rail systems without oil ? If we wait until it hits everyone else at the same time, we will not be able to afford it as rich countries outbid us for resources.

How will this impact allocation of resources.

We are not talking a few million here and there we are talking tens to hundreds of billions impact.

We are talking jobs, local economies, either lost or having to cope with serious influx of new residents who have been made climate refugees.

The problems we have with all the services you mention is because politicians KNEW it would eventually be a problem, but kicked the can down the road anyway.

Climate change is global in scope, it will impact trade significantly, it will impact resources.

This is a far far bigger issue that will impact everyone for hundreds if not thousands of years.

sir1963

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#3006811 7-Dec-2022 13:31

sen8or:

And more $ go out the door to a select few

Govt giving millions to Ruapehu Alpine Lifts to 'support development of alternative commercial solution' (msn.com)

What an absolute crock

Yep considering climate change will soon make "Bad Snow year" the norm.

And its from rural areas that don't think they should do anything themselves about climate change.

sir1963

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#3006812 7-Dec-2022 13:33

networkn:

Rikkitic:

This argument keeps getting dished up and I think it is a fake one. It is just an excuse to do nothing. If NZ actually did set an example, that would certainly have an international effect. It might actually set something in motion that would accumulate over time, encouraging and shaming others to join. Every avalanche starts with one small piece coming loose. Why shouldn't we be the first? Oh, it might cost us money. Better crawl back in the cave then. Let us hope someone braver and better than us does something.

I do not think we are so important, significant or even noticeable that if our response improves it will lead to anyone else following suit.

Having said that, I believe regardless of that, we should do our part and reduce our emissions as much as practical, because it's about doing our part.

We shouldn't however, kid ourselves about the global impact of that, but it does give us a moral grounding by which to speak out about reducing emissions and encourage other countries to do the same.

I don't buy for a second the argument that we need not do anything because the impact is 'insignificant'.

Our Anti-Nuke stance actually earned NZ a lot on international respect.

Its noteworthy that no government since then has tried to change the legislation because they KNOW it will cost them dearly.

GV27

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#3006813 7-Dec-2022 13:34

sen8or:

And more $ go out the door to a select few

Govt giving millions to Ruapehu Alpine Lifts to 'support development of alternative commercial solution' (msn.com)

What an absolute crock

It's a pretty harsh environment, equipment needs to be maintained and staff need to be retained or else it will reach a point where this is no operation left to salvage.

Small beer considering the regional impact of the mountain shutting and there being no ski field at all, but probably worth taking the time to get the management structure for the future correct or else they'll end up in the same spot.

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sir1963

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#3006814 7-Dec-2022 13:35

ezbee:

marmel
What's not often mentioned though is that many/most of the markets in countries that can pay best prices.
Well they have powerful local farming lobbies there looking for pressure points to attack NZ imports. To tarrif and limit volumes.

Therefore you can bet that if we do not make some moves on environment we will be feeding ammunition for these pressure groups.
It matters not if pot is calling kettle black when farmers in export countries are arguing to pressure their own politicians to be patriotic.

Being seen to do the right thing can be a good counter.
It's often the case in Marketing, its why companies spend a lot of greenwashing.

If we develop useful technologies and practices along the way so much the better.
It's a case of balance, how hard we go.

The UK did exactly this to our meat exports, simply put in "health food handling" requirements that their farmers did not have to meet

It increased the cost of our product, goal achieved.

gzt

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#3006816 7-Dec-2022 13:37

sir1963: we did not have all the automation we do now (eg prebuilt trusses and frames)

This is a side track and not a debate. As far as I'm aware factory roof truss and wall frame is not automated it's all just manual but produced in a specialized factory manual setting by people with jigs and nailguns etc.

This is another example of under investment in timber and processing. At a minimum it should be possible to automate processing a packet of timber with cutting list for lengths and angles etc. As far as I'm aware this is not done anywhere in NZ. From there it's another step to automate production of trusses and even frames. NZ really needs to get onto this.

I am aware there is sophisticated CNC running in NZ for things like cabinets for over a decade. I have not heard of any equivalent automation in NZ for basic things like roof truss and wall frames. I'd like to be wrong! : ).

marmel

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#3006818 7-Dec-2022 13:41

gzt:
sir1963: we did not have all the automation we do now (eg prebuilt trusses and frames)

This is a side track and not debate just wondering. As far as I'm aware roof truss and wall frame is not automated it's all just manual but produced in a specialized factory manual setting by people with jigs etc.

This is another example of under investment in timber and processing. At a minimum it should be possible to automate processing a packet of timber with cutting list for lengths and angles etc. As far as I'm aware this is not done anywhere in NZ. From there it's another step to automate production of trusses and even frames. NZ really needs to get onto this.

I'm am aware there is sophisticated CNC running in NZ for things like cabinets for over a decade. I have not heard of any equivalent automation in NZ for basic things like roof truss and wall frames. I'd like to be wrong! : ).

I heard during COVID times the lack of trusses was a bottleneck with wait times of over a year, certainly down south anyway. Any qualified builder can knock up some wall framing, roof trusses though have to be manufactured by a qualified supplier with what I assume is the right engineering signoff.

GV27

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#3006819 7-Dec-2022 13:42

sir1963:

The problems we have with all the services you mention is because politicians KNEW it would eventually be a problem, but kicked the can down the road anyway.

Climate change is global in scope, it will impact trade significantly, it will impact resources.

This is a far far bigger issue that will impact everyone for hundreds if not thousands of years.

No, there is no bigger issue than our kids being bereft of literacy and living hopelessly day-by-day during what should be the best years of their lives. The specter of climate change doesn't even come close.

The hypothetical humanitarian crisis we could have doesn't trump the already existent one we have in the here and now. And I don't believe you will be able to convince me otherwise.

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