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#224146 4-Nov-2017 19:37
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The recent topless motorbike prank reminded me this prank would have been pointless in Canada.

http://www.flava.co.nz/spy/hamilton-boys-high-student-retaliate-after-topless-motorbike-prank-disaster/

"Chaos at two Hamilton high schools is continuing to ensue after an end-of-year prank resulted in serious injuries to one student.

Waikato Diocesan School for Girls has fallen victim to retaliation today after six of its students drove topless on dirt bikes through the grounds of Hamilton Boys' High School on Wednesday."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom_in_Canada

"Topfreedom in Canada has largely been an attempt to combat the interpretation of indecency laws that considered a woman's breasts to be indecent, and therefore their exhibition in public an offence."

"In Canada, ... what constitutes an indecent act is not defined, and is open to interpretation by the courts.

In 1991, toplessness as an indecent act was challenged in Guelph, Ontario, by Gwen Jacob, who removed her shirt and was charged with indecency. Part of her defense was the double standards between men and women.

Although she was convicted, this was overturned by the Court of Appeal. This case determined that being topless is not indecent within the meaning of the Criminal Code. However, it did not establish any constitutional right of equality.

This case subsequently led to the acquittal of women in British Columbia and Saskatchewan who faced similar charges.

Although each Province and Territory technically reserves its right to interpret the law as it pleases, the Ontario case has proved influential. Since the matter has not been determined by the Supreme Court of Canada, it is still possible that a woman could be convicted elsewhere in Canada, but interpretation of moral law in Canada has become increasingly liberalised.

There do not appear to have been any further women charged in Canada since these cases were decided."

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Devastation by stupidity
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  #1895315 4-Nov-2017 19:49
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Honestly, I think it is time for people to just grow up. We all have bodies and they are all pretty much the same, sex differences aside. Every child knows perfectly well what every other child looks like. Who are we trying to protect, and why? People who get worked up about nudity are just perpetuating religious nonsense about sin and shame. How can something as natural as the human body be shameful? What a stupid idea.

 

pp;[[[[ (my cat agrees. The preceding is her comment.)

 

 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #1895338 4-Nov-2017 20:57
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If women want to walk around topless, that's fine.

What they cannot then reasonably expect is no one to look.





 
 
 
 


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  #1895390 4-Nov-2017 23:18
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I don't get the point of this topic. I recall a porn industry advertising parade the length of auckland central queen st. That suggests to me the existing laws already provide for that freedom.

gzt

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  #1895391 4-Nov-2017 23:24
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In fact I'm not sure how anyone living in New Zealand could have missed the coverage of all that.

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  #1895673 5-Nov-2017 22:26
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This incident would have been a non-event if the motorbike's rider hadn't run into a pedestrian.

 

From the article she's getting pinged for a driving offence for doing that, which seems fair enough to me.

 

Would have been a bit awkward standing round giving your details to the cops though :-)

 

 


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  #1895770 6-Nov-2017 08:01
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kingdragonfly: Time to re-examine topless law in New Zealand?

 

What do you think the law is at the moment and what do you think it should be changed to?


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  #1895799 6-Nov-2017 09:33
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There was some publicity a few years ago about a naked man riding a bicycle in a reserve. Then a few people staged a naked bike ride in Napier. None were  prosecuted. My understanding, which could of course be wrong, is that there is no actual law prohibiting anyone from appearing nude in public, as long as you aren't doing anything else that might be construed as offensive. Presumably you could visit the supermarket au naturale if you wanted to, but you might be done for disturbing the peace or something lame like that (assuming you survived the experience). I'm from Amsterdam and we used to get the occasional individual wandering around the city in the buff. There were also areas in the main park where the underdressed liked to congregate. Don't know if this is still the case. Although there were some topless sunbathers, those who want to do without any clothes in public usually seem to be male.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 




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  #1895819 6-Nov-2017 10:19
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I found this article

I'd say use Canadian's approach, and specifcally equate give gender equivalency of toplessness.

"Ethics debate sprouts at Wellington Free the Nipple Beach Day"

http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/87683141/Ethics-debate-sprouts-at-Wellington-Free-the-Nipple-Beach-Day

An ethics debate sprang up at Wellington's Free the Nipple Beach Day on Saturday [December 2016], as 22 topless women lay in the sun at Oriental Bay.

'It might be legal to come down and take photos of these women, but it's really disrespectful to do things without someone's consent,' Pollyanna Besley, organiser of the event said, as she bared her breasts on the sand.

The event was aimed at promoting gender equality and desexualising the nipple, Besley said.

It attracted a huge amount of attention, including criticism from Family First director Bob McCoskrie, who labelled it 'offensive behaviour'.

Others suggested that the women were putting themselves at risk of being photographed or harassed due to the location's outdoor, public nature.

Brent Higham parked himself and his camera lens on a table on the footpath next to the women so he could take photos of them.

When asked if they gave consent, he replied 'it's a public place'.

'I am not a sleaze or a pervert, I photograph what I like, things that stand out.

'At the moment it's something we don't see.'

Initially, he said his photos would appear 'nowhere' but later said he may enter one in a photography competition.

Upon being told the women felt uncomfortable with his camera pointed at them, Higham left.

Besley said it came down to respect for people and their personal privacy.

'There is quite a crowd, and there are a lot of people who are taking our photos, look at them – they're all staring.'

One woman walked past the event with a pronounced scowl on her face. Others didn't bat an eyelid.

'No tan lines,' one man said to his beach companions as he passed the topless women, 'good on them'.

It was a perfect summer's day in Wellington so Oriental Bay was buzzing, but some admitted they had come down with the intention of taking photos of the women, and had no desire to seek their consent.

The crowd grew soon after midday. Although hundreds had said they would come, a total of 22 women and seven men took part.

A group of women who were laying nearby said they were fully supportive of the event, but didn't feel relaxed enough to go topless, due to the crowd.

'There's no respect for privacy,' said Alice Plier​, who was fully clothed.

'If they want to upload it [to social media] they can do it themselves.'

Wellington man Tim Pate also got his shirt off for the event, and said he was acutely aware that people were staring.

'To sit there and watch is weird. I wonder if I could have gone up there and said something intelligent and asked them what's going on.

'We need to normalise things like the nipple and it [shouldn't be] sexualised. It's already in the media, it's on TV, it's in music videos, what's so different about on the beach?'"

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  #1895855 6-Nov-2017 10:48
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kingdragonfly: I found this article

I'd say use Canadian's approach, and specifcally equate give gender equivalency of toplessness.

 

NZ Does,

 

 

 

A women being topless is not an offence under the law,

 

Boobs on bikes ran in Auckland for years and was dragged into court a number of times, they were never convicted of any indecency offence,

 

It only stopped when the internet finally killed off the local porn business...

 

 

 

With regard to the original post about the Waikato Dio Girls, riding a motorbike over a kid's leg (causing him to go to hospital) is likely to get looked at by the cops no matter who is on the bike...


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  #1896006 6-Nov-2017 13:47
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Being topless is not indecent exposure - that requires exposure of genitals (s27, Summary Offences Act).  In the 1970s and 1980s it was common to see women sunbathing topless on NZ public beaches.

 

I'm unaware of any distinction in law between male and female nipples, but perhaps someone here with professional legal expertise can assist us.

 

However ... the feminist utopia in which women walk about topless and men don't even notice (because we are no-longer 'conditioned' to notice) seems unrealistic to me as a biologist. 

 

In the other great apes breasts only become prominent during lactation.  So why do human females have permanently prominent breasts?

 

Probably for attracting a mate.





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  #1896052 6-Nov-2017 14:29
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Geektastic: If women want to walk around topless, that's fine.

What they cannot then reasonably expect is no one to look.

There are many contexts in which it is not acceptable or polite to stare. There are very few contexts where that is perfectly ok.

gzt

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  #1896057 6-Nov-2017 14:35
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MikeAqua:However ... the feminist utopia in which women walk about topless and men don't even notice (because we are no-longer 'conditioned' to notice) seems unrealistic to me as a biologist

seems to work perfectly ok and occurs in many societies around the world. Maybe you should ask an anthropologist ; ).

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  #1896075 6-Nov-2017 14:45
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Indeed. there are societies where the females routinely do not cover their upper chests but they are in warmer places than where I live.

 

Do the males in these societies stare / notice ? 

 

 

 

I know from visiting various euro cities people will head to the park at lunch time to strip off and society seems to cope ok.

 

Not the Uk though, it's just not the done thing.


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  #1896251 6-Nov-2017 17:15
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gzt:
MikeAqua:However ... the feminist utopia in which women walk about topless and men don't even notice (because we are no-longer 'conditioned' to notice) seems unrealistic to me as a biologist

seems to work perfectly ok and occurs in many societies around the world. Maybe you should ask an anthropologist ; ).

 

I'm confident a good biological anthropologist would agree with me. 

 

In societies where women largely go topless, consider the effects of gravity ... setting that aside how do you know men [in those societies] don't notice topless women?

 

In a NZ context we are talking about women being occasionally topless- presumably in similar circumstances to men now.  So I guess a sensible analogy would be whether any women find the sight of topless men gratifying given that seeing topless men is common place.  All male reviews go topless so I guess the answer to that question is yes.

 

And .... trying to keep this with the FUG ... you also have to consider what sexual behaviour between men and women typically involves.

 

 





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  #1896253 6-Nov-2017 17:18
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gzt:
Geektastic: If women want to walk around topless, that's fine.

What they cannot then reasonably expect is no one to look.

There are many contexts in which it is not acceptable or polite to stare. There are very few contexts where that is perfectly ok.

 

If we are aiming for equality - should it also be considered impolite for women to look or stare at topless men?





Mike

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