Let's talk about Cryptocurrencies

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Forums › Finance and wealth management › Let's talk about Cryptocurrencies

Jeeves

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#255579 19-Aug-2019 12:55

Well, given the interesting discussion around the recent IRD post, I thought it time someone created a crypto discussion.

I would, however, like to set the tone. Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies have believers and haters, both of which are equally passionate, and vocal, about their opinions.

It is rare for a crypto discussion on a non-crypto forum to not fall in to a petty argument crap fest. So let's please, please, please keep this civilised for as long as possible.

No ad hominen attacks.
Be respectful of other people's opinions, even if you disagree with it.
No fan-boysim, or pushing X coin as the next best thing that will take over the world.
Conversely, no hating on someone because they have interest in crypto.

Crypto is utterly rife with misinformation and misunderstanding, on both sides of the argument. If you want to present an argument, try and do it with fact and maybe even, heaven forbid, some references. :D

For me personally, I have been around it since 2011. I have been scammed, I have lost money, I have made money. Fortunately none of which are life changing amounts (If you don't count the $40k capital gain I lost out thanks to the Raiblocks/Nano/Bitgrail saga).

I do believe crypto has it's place in society. I don't believe that place is what the original intention of it was. I don't believe it is going to go away. I'll leave my further thoughts for later :)

So - please discuss, and be civil. No one wants the ban hammer to come raining down because we can't handle the jandal.

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#2301643 19-Aug-2019 13:01

Basically follow the FUG and you'll be fine.

xpd

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#2301646 19-Aug-2019 13:02

I looked at it, but I have a mind that either grabs something straight away and runs with it, or dosent.... it was the latter with cryptocurrencies unfortunately :D

I only know of one friend who actually got into it, but is only in the past couple of years, and the funds he put into getting it running, outweighed the returns, so he lost out really. Think he was hoping for a quick buck more than anything.

I think it needs a "plain english" breakdown for the non-tech/geeks to become more mainstream.

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Jeeves

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#2301720 19-Aug-2019 14:36

My personal thoughts on Bitcoin specifically - it was never meant to be a currency. Currencies are heavily regulated and tightly controlled by government - and for good reason. If they aren't, then ... Zimbabwe. Bitcoin will never be a currency, for the very same reason that a lot of people like it - it is uncontrolled. There is no reserve bank. There is no monetary policy. There is no central reserve. There is no quantitative easing. Nothing to control its price stability - and that shows with its regular daily variations in price of several percent. It will never be a widely accepted currency, at least not in the form that one acquires it in the form of payment for goods or services.

However, what it is good at, and I believe, will be for a while yet, is a speculative store of value. Just like gold.

"But gold has an actual use in manufacturing and fashion"...

Sure, but only 12% of it though finds its way into your iphones, Mclaren F1's and Michel Hills. The rest is bought as a speculative store of value. Companies, Corporates, Governments (and criminals) buy and trade it for the sole purpose of either A) expecting the price of it to go up B) To hedge against something else going down.

Weather there is a need for another speculative vessel in this day and age is an argument for another day. But given the accessibility of Bitcoin vs Gold, even Gold derivatives, gives it a great opportunity to bring things like derivative markets, hedging opportunities and other interesting financial markets vessels close to Joe Public.

As an actual fan of Bitcoin, I do get exasperated at the sector of the crypto fan club that keep going on and on how it will bring down governments and will take over. It won't. It never will. All this chest beating is doing nothing but turning the tide on public favour and making it harder for everyone involved.

freitasm

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#2301721 19-Aug-2019 14:39

I think the number of exit scams, lawlessness and association in the public mind with crypto jacking makes it all really bad in the view of the public.

Add to this Blockchain being the buzzword du jour and fyou have a natural aversion to this market.

Beccara

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#2301724 19-Aug-2019 14:51

Gold's primary use is jewelry and it's far more than 12%, It's over 50% of yearly demand, Goldbugs make up 20-30% and central banks are under 5%.

Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated

Jeeves

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#2301729 19-Aug-2019 15:28

Beccara:

Gold's primary use is jewelry and it's far more than 12%, It's over 50% of yearly demand, Goldbugs make up 20-30% and central banks are under 5%.

Oops.. you're right. I misread a stat - that page said 12% went to industrial use... I brain farted jewelry into that category.

Still, a good chunk of gold is used as speculative store of value so my argument stands. It's why it goes up when the economy goes down. If anything it strengthens my argument as more proportion of BTC is used in this fashion than gold.

Whether it's a good thing even having something that is mostly a volatile speculative store of value .. well. Humans will be humans.

Jeeves

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#2301736 19-Aug-2019 15:36

freitasm: I think the number of exit scams, lawlessness and association in the public mind with crypto jacking makes it all really bad in the view of the public.

Add to this Blockchain being the buzzword du jour and fyou have a natural aversion to this market.

2017 and 2018 were horrible for crypto's reputation. So much FOMO and lawlessness abound, which the media just gobbled up. What this did was disincentive anyone who has more than a passing interest in it to do more research.

I think in a few more years, the organisations that have actual promise will start to shine through. It won't be many though, because as many people have quite rightly pointed out - there is very little that blockchain can do better than other technologies.

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Talkiet

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#2301741 19-Aug-2019 16:01

I have heard that many are attracted to the fact there are no centralised banks or regulations around cryptocurrencies. It was meant to be anonymous and accessible. With banks and governments in control of FIAT currencies it seems only the rich made money and banks in particular were making money from everyone, in every direction.

With Crypto however, it would seem to me that the people making money are the scammers, very early speculators and various exchanges... For me that's replicated a lot of the traditional currency concerns.

Personally I don't need anonymous currency to do things I want kept secret, and the little cryptocurrency I did get wasn't useful to me for anything except converting back into real money that I could use for things.

If you're not buying drugs (deliberate exaggerated example meant to indicate wanting an anonymous untraceable payment option), are not purely a speculator treating it as a very high risk investment (instead of a currency), or aren't making money converting it for other people, I don't see a use case.

So I'm out. If I could find a way to convert this last couple hundred bucks worth of Eth to real money I'd be happy.

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

freitasm

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#2301747 19-Aug-2019 16:10

Funny thing is, there is a lot of work involved to be anonymous with some crypto currencies. Not unlike money laundering.

BlueShift

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#2302183 20-Aug-2019 09:48

The elephant in the room with cryptocurrencies is the huge resources it takes to mine them. The equivalent of a decent sized country's electricity use is burned mining crypto every day. Its wasteful and can't be sustainable in the longer term.

Talkiet

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#2302229 20-Aug-2019 09:54

BlueShift:

The elephant in the room with cryptocurrencies is the huge resources it takes to mine them. The equivalent of a decent sized country's electricity use is burned mining crypto every day. Its wasteful and can't be sustainable in the longer term.

And this is a great example of the confusion... What is the utility of that processing? Is it the creation of tokens that we ascribe value to? Or is it processing that in and of itself provides external utility for the confirmation and security of real world transactions?

Your statement tends to assume it's just generating money tokens.

The theoretical utility is closer to the second option.

Reality? It's money tokens and the original perceived utility isn't happening.

Please note all comments are from my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

Beccara

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#2302233 20-Aug-2019 10:01

The thing is the comparison to gold for hedging is flawed, At it's base gold has a use outside of storing wealth/money outside of financial institutions. If all the gold bugs died tomorrow gold would still have a value because it has a use outside of hedging, Much the same as silver and platinum, Investment and hoarding are the minority purpose of precious metals.

If all of the crypto people died tomorrow crypto too would die as it serves no purpose outside of being a hedge. There is no industrial purpose boosted or supported by injecting crypto keys into the mix, Nobody is going to step out with a lovely pair of 24ct crypto earrings. To me bitcoin and most other crypto's I've seen are this weird mix of cyberpunk anarchism,old school information is free hippies, drug dealers and con artists. The only benefit I've seen personally is the amount of forex and binary options scammers targeting me has gone through the floor in the past 4-5 years

Jeeves

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#2302335 20-Aug-2019 12:16

Gold has a use outside of a store of value. True, very true. But is jewelry a use? It's only a use because as a society, we've all agreed it is shiny and has value.

The industrial market of gold is tiny compared to jewelry and hedging. If the world decided that gold had no sentimental or store value anymore, it would plummet in price and probably just as costly as copper or tin. There would be a massive oversupply. It's use would drop to next to nothing.

Same with Bitcoin. It does still have a use to enable the transfer of bitcoins between participants in a fast, secure and semi-anonymous fashion. If the 'crypto people' died like you said, Bitcoin value would plummet, but there would always be some kind of agreed value to it because it does have a purpose outside of speculation, however small.

There are of course other coins out there which serve different purposes, of which may be around for a very long time to come. Bitcoin is king now, but I'm not so sure it always will be.

Beccara

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#2302356 20-Aug-2019 13:25

Yes jewelry is a use, That's kinda my point is that today as it stand the bulk use of gold is not in value storage and Crypto really has no use outside of value storage or illegal actives. If you took away the value store usage of gold the price would stabilize out to normal industrial use cases like platinum which has more or less followed utility metal prices. If you take away speculation/value storage from crypto you cripple it to a point that i would say is fatal. If you need to send money legitimately there are plenty of methods to do so that dont require the power consumption of a small country to run or as many steps.

Even the core concept behind it with each party storing the blockchain has gone out the door since the blockchain is 200+gb. Remember the network ground to a crawl when SatoshiDice was running or when someone put CP on one of the forks? Didn't one of the ETH forks annouce a 51% attack? Maybe there is a killer app for crypto thats coming and maybe the kinks get worked out of it but I highly doubt it if only for the fact that the word crypto is so tainted

freitasm

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#2302732 21-Aug-2019 09:12

One of the barriers is that using crypto coins in real life is hard. I don't "invest" in crypt but now and then might have a couple of hundred dollars in bitcoins. For those times I've got a TenX card. It's a Visa debit card, against a Bitcoin balance you keep in the TenX wallet.

I've used it around Wellington - most places will accept a Paywave transaction but I've found one cafe that (even though they do support Paywave) would fail to accept a transaction with the card. Inserting the card would allow the transaction to go through ok.

This is issued in Singapore, available to SG, AU and NZ residents.

Anyone else using this or a different card?

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