Dolla payment platform (Venmo for NZ)

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Forums › Finance and wealth management › Dolla payment platform (Venmo for NZ)

mdf

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#304705 29-May-2023 18:58

Curious to know if anyone is using Dolla https://www.dolla.nz/? Even the related blog describes is as Venmo-like for NZ.

It seems to be built on the Akahu platform (https://www.akahu.nz/). There have been a couple of threads on this previously on Geekzone and some skepticism was expressed. The Akahu website does seem to have official-looking bank logos, however I checked with my bank (BNZ) who have disclaimed any kind of authorisation - however it was a fairly unhelpful response.

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#3081045 29-May-2023 19:26

Not sure what the value prop is.

Many banks in the US don't have the ability to make "payments" like we do in NZ.

With multiple times per day settlement, and now 7 day payments in place, really not sure how this helps transfer money between people?

Payments are also free within NZ

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michaelmurfy

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#3081061 29-May-2023 20:08

No, akahu is using scraping and I remember back in my banking days actually going out of my way to block it at one point. They at-least used to collect data (go into each of your accounts and get around a months worth of history) and they're not at all endorsed by any bank.

A picture speaks 1000 words - would you trust a third party company to store your internet banking login and encourage you to disable 2FA (Onlinecode via ANZ)? This was taken just now.

If a third party site is asking for your internet banking login information then it is not endorsed by your bank and is just as bad in many cases as entering your details on a phishing site - you have no idea what they're grabbing, storing and have no idea what their security is like. There are some companies doing things via open banking but akahu is not one of them.

We've got 7 day payments between banks now that happen even on public holidays.

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mdf

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#3081067 29-May-2023 20:32

It was at about that point I got skeptical. But I'd like to think I'm reasonably informed and (until the signup phase at least) it wasn't obvious whether this was some kind of authorised API interface or not.

The Akahu website at least has bank logos featured prominently and the documentation seems thorough and legitimate. It would appear API access is in the works but not yet fully ready.

mike

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#3081138 29-May-2023 21:40

Dosh - https://www.dosh.nz have been overfunding their rewards to build audience, so that's a good local platform to get on.

Venmo (PayPal), Cash App (Block/Square), Zelle (US banks) all managed to grow huge audiences in the states despite the fact PayPal "solved" the payments problem 20 years earlier so I wouldn't write any of the local ones off yet.

I don't think Dolla/Buck are serious (yet?) about building consumer brands but rather waiting in hope that "open banking" will create some sort of opportunity - they're also stuck in that no other bank wants to work with Westpac funded companies - leaving Akahu as a good "plumbing" business for financially adjacent businesses (identity, credit checks, proof of funds, etc).

mentalinc

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#3081163 29-May-2023 22:09

Zelle is required in the US. If I log into my Bank of America account the ONLY way I can move money to any other persons account (not my own suffix) is using Zelle. Which isn't at all the same as all NZ online (and mobile) banking platforms enabling you to pay other accounts.

Sure there is the added benefit of "seeing" all your accounts from many banks in one place etc, but you do that by breaching your banks terms. You're also providing the random third party with access to ALL your spending habits, and ALL other personal information e.g. home address, IRD number, PIE rates, your salary/wage etc etc. Some very nice information right there - cough "Cambridge Analytica" cough cough....

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michaelmurfy

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#3081173 29-May-2023 23:11

mdf: The Akahu website at least has bank logos featured prominently and the documentation seems thorough and legitimate. It would appear API access is in the works but not yet fully ready.

There is a little more history to this I am not at any position to discuss but the banks have not endorsed access. While they may look official, entering your details on a third party site is against your internet banking terms. My biggest problem here is if you've got 2FA enabled on any of these banks then Akahu will tell you to disable it. Plus for them to login to your banking they're storing secrets - if they got pwned then suddenly hackers have got access to peoples IB secrets that may not have any form of 2FA enabled.

Having first-hand experience with open banking at a major bank I know how much of a task it is too. But also know another story with these payment providers (not going to state who or what bank here) where we were in a position to provide a secure API for them to make a payment via the official internet banking page but they declined. When we did further investigation on what they were doing we found they were downloading statements for the last 3 months, all information about all accounts, accessing the user details page and a whole lot of other things unrelated to simply transferring to an account so basically the customers were the product here and the provider was collecting data that the API we offered couldn't provide.

Once Open Banking fully gets released it'll allow such data collection but until then if you enter your login information on any scraper you're opening yourself up to a whole lot of potential trouble along with opening up potentially your most sensitive information to a third party.

Blocking (and I have personally tried that at a previous bank) doesn't work as the scraper companies, their customers, and the banks customers all complain in mass. Customers are under the impression that scrapers like POLi and Account2Account are official and endorsed from the bank. Yes, there is a market that Open Banking can fill but it'll only take time for that to happen.

Until then a huge accomplishment has happened with 7 days processing I have personally done a huge chunk of work on basically eliminating the need of P2P payment apps for things like Dolla and Dosh.

mudguard

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#3081215 30-May-2023 06:34

michaelmurfy:

mdf: The Akahu website at least has bank logos featured prominently and the documentation seems thorough and legitimate. It would appear API access is in the works but not yet fully ready.

There is a little more history to this I am not at any position to discuss but the banks have not endorsed access. While they may look official, entering your details on a third party site is against your internet banking terms. My biggest problem here is if you've got 2FA enabled on any of these banks then Akahu will tell you to disable it. Plus for them to login to your banking they're storing secrets - if they got pwned then suddenly hackers have got access to peoples IB secrets that may not have any form of 2FA enabled.

Isn't this what XERO does?

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Ge0rge

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#3082360 30-May-2023 12:57

Why is Poli an option on the NZTA website, for paying rego/RUC etc? Certainly seems to give it some legitimacy when it is on a government website.

wellygary

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#3082383 30-May-2023 13:46

Ge0rge:

Why is Poli an option on the NZTA website, for paying rego/RUC etc? Certainly seems to give it some legitimacy when it is on a government website.

This is a longstanding issue, you violate your bank's T+Cs every time you use it...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/110009318/a-honeypot-for-fraudsters-or-a-simple-way-to-pay-online

michaelmurfy

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#3082408 30-May-2023 14:15

mudguard:

Isn't this what XERO does?

No, Xero / MYOB have a partnership with most banks and get a bank feed. No screen scraping needed.

networkn

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#3082452 30-May-2023 17:16

Why is Poli allowed to continue to operate in NZ if it's against all financial institutes T&C's (which I understand isn't law but may as well be). How can it be used on a Government website? I understand and agree with the security risks it presents, I just don't understand why it hasn't been subject to some form of regulatory investigation.

mike

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#3082501 30-May-2023 17:27

There's a good report here that explains the case for screenscraping.

https://fintechnz.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2022/07/New-Zealand-Fintech-Pulsecheck-2022-Discovery-v2.pdf

The reality is it's secure, safe and used hundreds of thousands of times a day.

"POLi and account2account are widely-used products that use screenscraping to initiate a one-off online payment. Over 4,000 merchants use these services including The Warehouse, PB Tech, Mighty Ape, Spark, Bunnings, Air New Zealand, Auckland Council, and Waka Kotahi (NZTA)."

mdf

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#3082502 30-May-2023 17:32

It feels like that there is a bit of a detente between the banks and Akahu, Poli and the like. Based on what others more informed than me have said, using these services is against the terms and conditions and is a bad idea security wise. However if the banks really didn't want these services used, there is more they could do to crack down on them.

All the bank logos are on both Akahu's and Poli's websites which certainly gives the impression that there is some kind of tacit approval. Otherwise there would be a barrage of cease and desist letters and complaints to the Commerce Commission about false and misleading advertising. I've also seen fairly extensive advertising campaigns about phishing websites and even skimming devices on ATMs. But nothing similar for these third party websites. And I would guess that there are further technical measures to prevent this sort of third party access and screen scraping?.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#3082503 30-May-2023 17:37

"A bunch of people use it" isn't the same as it being safe. See the repeated issues with the credit check agencies in the US. All Akahu/POLi have going for them is they're too small to gather attention or to develop technological debt... yet.

richms

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#3082532 30-May-2023 19:04

mike:

The reality is it's secure, safe and used hundreds of thousands of times a day.

"POLi and account2account are widely-used products that use screenscraping to initiate a one-off online payment. Over 4,000 merchants use these services including The Warehouse, PB Tech, Mighty Ape, Spark, Bunnings, Air New Zealand, Auckland Council, and Waka Kotahi (NZTA)."

Widely used doesnt make it good.

Bad security practices should result in your access to online banking being suspended till you get your credentials reset.

Richard rich.ms

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