Fraudulent Charges on my Kiwibank account

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Forums › Finance and wealth management › Fraudulent Charges on my Kiwibank account

David321

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#311522 24-Jan-2024 09:53

Hi all,

Just wanted to share a recent experience my wife and I have had which involves some fraudulent charges on my wife and I's Kiwibank account and the response from the bank to see how this may or may not compare to other people's experience/knowledge.

My wife and I have multiple joint accounts with Kiwibank and there is only one account lined to our individual debit cards, yesterday there was about $400 sitting in that account and at some stage overnight it was cleaned out with multiple charges of around $50-$60 to "MERCURYO Mercuryo LT", "hellcase Singapore SG" and "Bitinvestor Brabrand DK", about 6 transactions in total all sitting as "Pending" on my statement on the app.

The interesting thing is as it a joint account everything on the statement is usually visible to both my wife and I when we use the Kiwibank app on our phones, but this time none of those pending charges show on her phone which made her confused as to where that money could have gone. When she called me I could see the pending charges on my statement, we have never seen transactions hidden from just one of us so this was very strange.

I called the bank and they said they have blocked my wifes card as the charges were from her card details and the charges have been marked a fraudulent, perhaps this is why whoever made these charges somehow hide it from my wifes statement and not mine? still not sure how they could have done this though? the bank said that even though it is a joint account my wife has to call and confirm she did not make those purchases, so she did that and the bank have told us they will now investigate and this could take 60 days and they can not confirm if we will get the money back.

As for online purchases, the only things she has done with the card online recently is book some refundable accommodation on booking.com.

Anyone have any experience or knowledge with this sort of thing, we are both pretty tech savy and can spot a scam fairly easily, and although this seems like no mistake of our own (I'm guessing booking.com has been hacked again) its quite surreal to go through this and the uncertainty from the bank regarding getting our money back is not good.

I am also wondering if it was not just the card details that someone had access to and perhaps her online login (should they have it) would have been how they managed to hide those transactions from my wife and not me? I dont think having card details alone would be enough to be able to hide transactions from her statement. If it was not a joint account my wife would have no idea of where that money would have gone and depending on the amount in the account may not have even noticed these charges were being made at all.

_David_

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#3185800 24-Jan-2024 10:12

Never use a debit card, apply for a credit card

MadEngineer

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#3185803 24-Jan-2024 10:22

I’d call it a glitch if your wife not being able to see those transactions. Only the bank can answer that. Does she see the multiple transactions if she pays $100 at a petrol pump but only uses $50?

The good news is it should be easy to claim those as fraudulent. Your wife should be issued with a new CC and the money returned. IIRC, when we had this happen to us on a Friday, the money was back in the account on Monday under Westpac

Damn scary at first but the bank should take care of it for you.

You're not on Atlantis anymore, Duncan Idaho.

CYaBro

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#3185812 24-Jan-2024 10:56

As an aside, don't support sites like booking.com.

Use them to find a place you like and then book directly with the accommodation provider.
Often it is cheaper, and we've had free upgrades on arrival as they appreciate not having to pay the commission to those sites.

Opinions are my own and not the views of my employer.

ANglEAUT

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#3185815 24-Jan-2024 11:07

MadEngineer: ... Your wife should be issued with a new CC and the money returned. ...

Ahh, but they used a debit card. That means your own money, not the banks money. Less likely to get the money back.

Please keep this GZ community vibrant by contributing in a constructive & respectful manner.

richms

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#3185820 24-Jan-2024 11:32

Be glad you used a separate account for the debit card, and it had minimal money in it to get taken. I know people that have a debit card on their account their pay goes into and they spend from and have nothing else on another account which is IMO absurd but banks encourage that.

Now you get to deal with what I have found to be the worse bank for dealing with card fraud that there is to recover the charges that you did not make.

Your terms will say that you are not liable for the costs if you did not contribute to the charges happening, so dont take them saying "if you get the money back" - correct them and ask how long to get the money back.

Now open another account, and get new debit cards and re set up anything you have as an ongoing payment to use the new card.

Richard rich.ms

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#3185835 24-Jan-2024 12:02

This is why I only have a EFTPOS card and a credit card that is blocked in the bnz app till I need it

I always keep Payway off in the bnz app as well

David321

486 posts

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#3185840 24-Jan-2024 12:37

richms:

Now you get to deal with what I have found to be the worse bank for dealing with card fraud that there is to recover the charges that you did not make.

Your terms will say that you are not liable for the costs if you did not contribute to the charges happening, so dont take them saying "if you get the money back" - correct them and ask how long to get the money back.

Can you elaborate on your experience with Kiwibank regarding card fraud and how other banks have performed better? not doubting you just curious as it seems like you have experience.

The second part of you post about the terms, I have heard NZ has pretty strict laws on banks regarding protecting their customers money and the money should be returned even if its paid back by the bank because they cant recover the money. I imagine this would be in their terms and conditions somewhere, I am unable to find anything I can refer them to regarding this, any suggestions?

_David_

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Batman

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#3185845 24-Jan-2024 12:44

David321:

Can you elaborate on your experience with Kiwibank regarding card fraud and how other banks have performed better? not doubting you just curious as it seems like you have experience.

The second part of you post about the terms, I have heard NZ has pretty strict laws on banks regarding protecting their customers money and the money should be returned even if its paid back by the bank because they cant recover the money. I imagine this would be in their terms and conditions somewhere, I am unable to find anything I can refer them to regarding this, any suggestions?

i have lodged credit card fraud claims (NOT debit card) with Kiwibank and ANZ. both are very difficult to deal with. no person to talk to, only send emails to and fro to a generic email. Kiwibank refused to believe transactions were fraudulent and said it was me buying stuff before investigating anything - i lodge a police report and then showed them the police report before they acted. with both banks money were recovered by some organization called Mastercard and Visa who reversed transactions at the merchant end.

not sure about protection with debit card sorry, maybe check your T&Cs.

richms

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#3185862 24-Jan-2024 12:58

David321:

Can you elaborate on your experience with Kiwibank regarding card fraud and how other banks have performed better? not doubting you just curious as it seems like you have experience.

The second part of you post about the terms, I have heard NZ has pretty strict laws on banks regarding protecting their customers money and the money should be returned even if its paid back by the bank because they cant recover the money. I imagine this would be in their terms and conditions somewhere, I am unable to find anything I can refer them to regarding this, any suggestions?

It was for a paywave used in store problem with a lost card and they were basically wanting proof that it was not the cardholder that went in store and did them. Hopeless call center that was not listening to them.

Vs my ASB and Westpac experiences which were a breeze to get thru, but still had a form. (few years back so may have improved now) - contrast to what the US banks do which is so easy since card fraud is prevalent over there.

Richard rich.ms

David321

486 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3185870 24-Jan-2024 13:05

Batman:

David321:

Can you elaborate on your experience with Kiwibank regarding card fraud and how other banks have performed better? not doubting you just curious as it seems like you have experience.

The second part of you post about the terms, I have heard NZ has pretty strict laws on banks regarding protecting their customers money and the money should be returned even if its paid back by the bank because they cant recover the money. I imagine this would be in their terms and conditions somewhere, I am unable to find anything I can refer them to regarding this, any suggestions?

i have lodged credit card fraud claims (NOT debit card) with Kiwibank and ANZ. both are very difficult to deal with. no person to talk to, only send emails to and fro to a generic email. Kiwibank refused to believe transactions were fraudulent and said it was me buying stuff before investigating anything - i lodge a police report and then showed them the police report before they acted. with both banks money were recovered by some organization called Mastercard and Visa who reversed transactions at the merchant end.

not sure about protection with debit card sorry, maybe check your T&Cs.

Interesting, thanks for the info.

As the debit cards are Visa and the transactions were obviously not made with the swipe of the card (chip and pin transaction) I believe the protection and powers of Visa should apply, so fingers crossed.

Another difference here is the bank believes these transactions were fraudulent and they were actually flagged before I even called them, they wanted my wife to call and confirm these were not purchases she made, so she called and told them that.

Ill keep hunting for info saying the bank is liable for reimbursement regardless of if the recover the money or not. Surely this has to be done in a reasonable time and I dont think 60 days is reasonable.

_David_

Qazzy03

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#3185875 24-Jan-2024 13:45

I did a visa debit card charge back with kiwibank last year.
I had like 60 days to lodge a claim, rang the charge back lime which is different from the general line.
Fraud will most likely have its own line too.
First call was to take details and then referred off to the team who emailed me with a list of actions I needed to do.
I did the actions they required and replied via the same email or included their references code.
Took a couple of days but they were on to it.
They give big time frames but they had the money to me the day after they approved my claim but had to advise the company I charged back had 30 days to appeal.. they never did.

Hold times were long in the afternoon but really quick first thing in the morning with kiwibank.

Just my 2cents, they give long time frames for processing.

boosacnoodle

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#3185886 24-Jan-2024 14:32

Linux:

This is why I only have a EFTPOS card

EFTPOS cards would have to be amongst the least secure cards available as the magstripe is easily cloned and reused elsewhere.

nova

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#3185897 24-Jan-2024 14:58

boosacnoodle:

Linux:

This is why I only have a EFTPOS card

EFTPOS cards would have to be amongst the least secure cards available as the magstripe is easily cloned and reused elsewhere.

True, but with a credit/debit card you can make purchases without needing a copy of the card, you just need the card details. And if you lose an EFTPOS card, the person who finds it can't just wave the card over the terminal to make a payment of under $200. So even though a credit card may have more secure technology on the card itself, the overall system isn't more secure.

BNZ sent me a debit card just before covid, and told me that my eftpos card was now expiring much sooner that the date on the card, and I needed to switch to the debit card. But when covid came along they extended out the deadline, and have since sent me replacement eftpos card. I primarily use credit cards for purchases, but I do like having an eftpos card as a backup, and don't see why I would ever want a debit card. Compared to a credit card a debit card has no advantages, and also has the significant disadvantage of directly accessing my actual funds, making fraud recovery more difficult.

KiwiSurfer

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#3185900 24-Jan-2024 15:05

boosacnoodle:

Linux:

This is why I only have a EFTPOS card

EFTPOS cards would have to be amongst the least secure cards available as the magstripe is easily cloned and reused elsewhere.

I can think of a few arguments in favour of EFTPOS security over Visa/MC/Amex.

It's easy enough to fall back to magstripe just by not inserting your Visa/MC/Amex chip card correctly fooling the machine to think the chip is faulty. It will ask for a swipe which fails asking for a chip insert, and when the second chip insert fails it'll ask for a swipe, and 100% of the time the second swipe (following two failed chip inserts) will go through.

EFTPOS requires a PIN so even if you clone you still need to figure out the PIN. Visa/MC/Amex can and do fall back to signature (especially overseas). (Yes EFTPOS does have an offline process but this isn't an automatic fallback like it is with Visa/MC/Amex).

Visa/MC also have agreements with certain retailers where they accept chip (and possibly swipe too) transactions without a PIN if certain criteria is met. E.g. Maccas, Countdown, etc I've inserted my card expecting a PIN prompt only for it to go through without any verification -- and even the receipt says 'NO PIN VERIFICIATION' or similar.

Not sure if it's changed in the last few years, but when I travelled in in the US I was shocked that most shops just swiped your card -- transaction processed without any PIN or any other verification of any kind.

Paywave, Chip, etc is great in theory but Visa/MC/Amex/etc bend over backward to support legacy processes to the point it's a massive loophole. EFTPOS requiring PIN is a simple but massively effective barrier to fraud. This is why EFTPOS fraud is rare while Visa/MC/Amex fraud is massive especially overseas.

richms

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#3185906 24-Jan-2024 15:30

KiwiSurfer:

Not sure if it's changed in the last few years, but when I travelled in in the US I was shocked that most shops just swiped your card -- transaction processed without any PIN or any other verification of any kind.

worse is that all the PCI compliance stuff is built around that idiocy where they will put the card details thru their normal POS system and batch process them at a later stage. They are supposed to do things like look at the card and check the embossed/printed last 4 match what was swiped and other checks that they never ever seem to do which is why its so common to be ripped off over there. We are lucky that we had all the terminals that are actually designed with security in mind as a result of eftpos here.

Richard rich.ms

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