Music on HTPC vs DVD/Bluray Players

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#347773 4-Jul-2010 19:49

Lossless output as in not losing resolution thru the windows system mixer or soundcard sample rate conversion.

I dont see why you would consider using an AVR as a compromise when you are considering using an external DAC and feeding that in bypassing most of the AVRs processing. May as well just get a primitive power amp if you are going to go do that.

Richard rich.ms

tkr001

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#347786 4-Jul-2010 21:14

Yup, I run seperate HT and 2 channel systems. I started just like the OP and progressed....

buzzy

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#347896 5-Jul-2010 09:41

tkr001: Yup, I run seperate HT and 2 channel systems. I started just like the OP and progressed....

...which is great, but it doesn't really answer the OP's question, does it?

If we start with the same source, and we're sending a digital signal via S/PDIF to the AVR, and the AVR is doing the digital to analogue conversion and amplification, why is there a difference in the sound?

Compression - lossy or otherwise - doesn't come into it because the same thing happens an original disc.

DAC doesn't come into it, because in both cases the AVR would be performing the same DAC and amplification, assuming it was receiving the same signal.

Which implies that there's something happening *before* the signal is sent to the AVR. If we can help the OP to find out what's happening, we solve his problem. Buying an external DAC isn't going to change the fact that the incoming digital signal is different when sent from the two different sources.

Jaxson

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#347911 5-Jul-2010 10:02

Also the OP doesn't say he's not happy with his entire system as such. He's saying he is happy already with one source, just not the other.

+1 for there is some eq being applied at source. Either it's a default thing in the bluray player or it's not there or another bland eq is being applied in the pc software. Could be as simple as a source volume difference but we'll give the OP the benefit of the doubt on that one.

hmm, another option is what format is being output from each? I know it's being carried via optical/dig coax, but is it straight pcm or is there a dolby conversion etc being applied by one source?

buzzy

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#347920 5-Jul-2010 10:27

+1 for there is some eq being applied at source. Either it's a default thing in the bluray player or it's not there or another bland eq is being applied in the pc software. Could be as simple as a source volume difference but we'll give the OP the benefit of the doubt on that one.

I'm thinking it may be something like this. One source is providing a higher level of input signal than the other. Difficult to measure without a sound pressure meter though.

hmm, another option is what format is being output from each? I know it's being carried via optical/dig coax, but is it straight pcm or is there a dolby conversion etc being applied by one source?

Gumdigger said that the "Amp is displaying 2channel whether its played from bluray or htpc.". The Yammy would display that it's receiving a DD signal if that was the case, even if the output was sent only to two channels :)

Jaxson

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#347931 5-Jul-2010 10:48

Good point buzzy. Sorry it's a bit tricky obviously when I don't have knowledge of the individual gear being used.

Why I asked about the format was some receivers have options to 'restore' mp3 files and the amp may be recognising one sources output as something it can process in a different way is all. I'm not familiar with the Yamaha receiver in question though and assume it would display any of this on the front screen?

End solution though may be to look at what you're using to play these files on the PC and see if there is an eq option within that software that improves the sound for you.

Hey it's not as easy as the receiver remembering different treble and bass settings for each discrete input is it?

gumdigger

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#347937 5-Jul-2010 11:09

I dont really know how to use graphedit but i thought it would allow you guys to see how the sound is passed out to the AMP. the second last filter in the screenshot is AC3Filter and in the SPDIF menu AS IS is selected

AC3-MainMenu http://i46.tinypic.com/2dqlsmr.jpg
AC3-Spdif http://i49.tinypic.com/2cgkmyf.jpg

fddshow is also listed, anything i should be checking there.

I dont really spend want to much on the DAC's I could consider getting the xonar cards if that will make any difference.

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Jaxson

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#347942 5-Jul-2010 11:17

What's the DRC bit, that's not range compression is it?
Anything under the Eq section improve things?

tkr001

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#347963 5-Jul-2010 11:50

gumdigger: I dont really know how to use graphedit but i thought it would allow you guys to see how the sound is passed out to the AMP. the second last filter in the screenshot is AC3Filter and in the SPDIF menu AS IS is selected

AC3-MainMenu http://i46.tinypic.com/2dqlsmr.jpg
AC3-Spdif http://i49.tinypic.com/2cgkmyf.jpg

fddshow is also listed, anything i should be checking there.

I dont really spend want to much on the DAC's I could consider getting the xonar cards if that will make any difference.

Why is the Use SPDIF box not ticked?

buzzy

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#347968 5-Jul-2010 11:55

DRC is dynamic range compression: http://ac3filter.net/guides/dynamic_range_compression - essentially, it makes quiet sounds louder and doesn't do anything to the loud sounds. Useful when you're trying to watch a movie that has dialog (quiet) and you don't want to wake up the kids with the occasional explosions (loud). This could well be contributing to the issue.

Gumdigger, are you also using the PC as an HTPC? If so, that may explain why you've got those settings enabled. It might be worth disabling both the Gain and DRC, or to use a player that doesn't pass the sound out to a sound codec (AC3filter, monogram, ffdshow etc) but that passes it directly to the DirectSound or WaveOut device. Richms suggested Foobar I think?

Jaxson

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#347986 5-Jul-2010 12:33

Didn't the OP say it didn't sound dynamic enough?!
Looking at all the options there I think it's fair to say this answers the original question of why it sounds different. There is clearly some for of EQ or signal manipulation (planned or otherwise) going on between one source and the other.

smac

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#348216 5-Jul-2010 22:18

tkr001: SPDIF from a PC to an AVR will never produce Hifi sound.....

ummm...this is implying that a digital source, sent via a digital transfer, to a digital receiver, is going to somehow reduce the quality of the sound??

richms

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#348218 5-Jul-2010 22:28

smac:
tkr001: SPDIF from a PC to an AVR will never produce Hifi sound.....

ummm...this is implying that a digital source, sent via a digital transfer, to a digital receiver, is going to somehow reduce the quality of the sound??

Even with a dolby digital encode I have not had a problem with the sound going into an AVR, certainly sounds a lot better to me than systems of people I know who have bought a lot of audiophool hardware and still have something that cant push 90dBA because they have no bass management and no subwoofer.

Richard rich.ms

tkr001

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#348222 5-Jul-2010 22:45

smac:
tkr001: SPDIF from a PC to an AVR will never produce Hifi sound.....

ummm...this is implying that a digital source, sent via a digital transfer, to a digital receiver, is going to somehow reduce the quality of the sound??

One word, jitter

richms

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#348228 5-Jul-2010 22:55

Jitter is one of the biggest cons in the audio world. Mattered in the old days where things didnt reclock things like on the very first CD players, as soon as there was oversampling in DA converters it would either lock onto the clock with its PLL or not, any jitter bad enough to make a PLL lose lock would indicate that there was something broken in the source material.

Even when there is jitter, the resulting noise from a sample being latched a few nanoseconds earlier or later will be immaterial.

PC motherboards are able to push signals around them with clock speeds faster than the claimed measurable jitter change between audiophools with their overpriced digital cables.

Besides. If there is any DSP being done on the data it necessitates having a buffer in the AVR so the jitter is totally removed before it hits its DACs

Richard rich.ms

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