TV calibration checks

Forums › Home Theatre (including HTPC and EPG Collector) › TV calibration checks

1 | 2

freitasm

BDFL - Memuneh
79297 posts

Uber Geek

Administrator

ID Verified

Trusted

Geekzone

Lifetime subscriber

#350290 12-Jul-2010 15:14

fahrenheit:
Masterpiece: Think you might be misleading yourself there.

Sorry, what?
If you have something to add or correct, then you'll have to be a bit more expansive than that.

Folks, please calm down - or I lock this thread. From what I read I don't think Masterpiece's comment (the "misleading" one) should be taken in a personal offensive way.

fahrenheit

757 posts

Ultimate Geek

#350306 12-Jul-2010 15:51

Masterpiece: My intension was not meant to offend, I just thought your process could mislead the topic starter, even if your intensions were to help them.

I appreciate that concern.
I do not abandon someone I set out to help and the end goal of a solution is all I am interested in at the end of the day. I was simply waiting for the OP to return to this thread with his findings so that we could move forwards from there.
I am trying to establish normal patterns of behaviour in my own plasma. Its a mutally beneficial goal.

1.Luminance is luminance, 0 is nothing 100 is full, not my terms personally, its the industry terms. IRE is for voltage where 0IRE is equal 7.5v, legacy from CRT technology.

Got it. Its a term that persists with some of the AV veterans of yesteryear (which I'm somewhat a member of) and I guess I've picked it up from them.

2. By isolation, limited by weakest link, ie a non reference device as a PS3 is I'm afraid.
They aren't bad, however they are a consumer device and there is a degree of variance from device to device.

I don't tend to let my findings rest on the results of one piece of gear. The PS3 is handy because it is capable of 50Hz, 60Hz and 24p output all in the one box, but I have other devices too. Xbox 360's (I have several), Laptop, PC's, the built-in Freeview tuner, the built in SD card reader... All are consistant.

As I mentioned previously, merely switching to a blank HDMI input, the panel sits and waits, expecting a 60Hz source. If one is presented, the 'HDMI' OSD at the top left will vanish as normal after a few moments. If a 50Hz/24p input is presented, the panel refreshes, the luminance dips and the OSD momentarily turns off and then back on again accompanied by the resolution '1080p' etc. This is the same behaviour that occurs when the resolution changes also. This is consistant and repeatable.

3&4 Suspect something else, I have an idea, but I try not to jump to conclusions in such things as it is easy to be wrong, as I have been in the past with something similar.

I have not heard an explaination as to why it occurs, only confirmation that it does occur. Poor power supply quality perhaps?
I would like to know why (if) its necessary because it impacts my enjoyment of the primary use for the TV. Gaming.
Its bad enough these 2009 models deteriate so badly in black level only after a few hundred hours, this further step makes it even more unpalatable.

mentalinc

3240 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#350374 12-Jul-2010 18:43

I assume Masterpiece is to polite to blow his trumpet (beside his sig) so I'll do it for him:

http://www.audioenz.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=6488

....
Masterpiece Calibration Ltd was born out of a love of home theatre and a need for visual perfection. Although starting from DIY calibration tools and building my own RGB probes in the best Kiwi tradition I soon realised the limitations of non-referenced equipment. Initially the whole goal was for my own home theatre set up, gathering real equipment seemed a bit of an overkill so I thought I could provide my new found skills and tools to other Kiwis, thus Masterpiece Calibration Ltd was formed. Whilst gathering tools I also gathered more knowledge and information sources by becoming affiliated with ISF, "Imaging Science Foundation" which is a USA based institution itself born out of a need for calibration of visual systems.
...

fahrenheit: Time for your credentials...other wise, smile and nod with what Masterpiece has to say.

CPU: AMD 5900x | RAM: GSKILL Trident Z Neo RGB F4-3600C16D-32GTZNC-32-GB | MB: Asus X570-E | GFX: EVGA FTW3 Ultra RTX 3080Ti| Monitor: LG 27GL850-B 2560x1440

Quic: https://account.quic.nz/refer/473833 R473833EQKIBX

fahrenheit

757 posts

Ultimate Geek

#350412 12-Jul-2010 21:17

fahrenheit: Time for your credentials...other wise, smile and nod with what Masterpiece has to say.

This is a discussion forum. A forum lives or dies by the contributions its members make. It is not a soapbox for any one individual.
If you have a problem with my attitude or wish to correct me on factual matters, the floor is yours to do so. But do not for one moment suggest that I should contribute nothing, because I don't fit your ideal of an authority on the topics I choose to partake in.

If you are unfamiliar with the subject matter then may I kindly suggest that you should be the one to sit this out. Don't worry yourself about it. If I am wrong and there are greater authorities here to save the day, I'll be corrected.

Masterpiece

247 posts

Master Geek

#350556 13-Jul-2010 10:54

Ok, we are digressing from the topic starters initial question, which I think has been answered.

Anyway, I'll finish with some observations, this may or maynot be the ultimate cause of luminance change for you.

A PS3, Xbox PC all have some common factors, that is in relation to gaming or to be more specific PC specs when it comes to gamuts.
One of importance is current video, no matter if it is PAL, HDrec709 or Rec601,NTSC,ATSC they all work with 16~235, where black is 16 and white is 235.
PC specs, sRGB gamut, although pretty much the same as HDrec709 by the 2 dimensional CIE gamut chart, actualy ranges from 0~255, black at 0 and white at 255.
The reason for the difference is legacy, nothing more. Broadcasting required some head and foot room for too allow for intolerances.

Now if the devices comunicated with correctness, that is when you send 24hz,50/60hz material, all is well, however it may be possible that something is hard wired to switch to the wrong range(Or a setting is wrong somewhere).
Facts are when you are gaming, 0~255 is probably in play, however if you force limited range in PS3 you could infact clip the bottom end of the black level, this would give you crushed blacks. You may not notice in a game since most have no basis of reality when it comes to luminance., it is set by a programmer.

I could be off base, however the Panel may be doing exactly as designed, responding to the inputs as the industry specs set.

Have you checked what setting your panel is in when you send the panel different rates.
Each panel mode, dynamic, standard, movie, eco track different gamma tracks.
If this changes with the different input rates you will see different luminance.

TV's panels are not designed for gaming, they are designed for video and real life footage. You may percieve oddities in gaming, even if they have gaming modes, these just tend to turn off processing to some degree.

Panels, especially plasmas only have limited power supply, as I noted, they are designed for video, realife footage. So can be limited when displaying gaming footage which tends to be brighter than video footage.
If you wanted powerful power supply on a plasma you need to get the Premiere plasma VX100 at $10000 for the 50in and $160000 for the 65in.

Finally, there is limitations with even the best video diplays, I've only seen one plasma hold an altering black level with confidence, even then it still varied it's black level by a small amount. Saying that, the quality of todays technologies is the best it's ever been, what you are seeing is something which was intirely hidden by less ability.

Me:"I'm not a robot!"

ET: "Maybe; you have some freewill, but you chose your path by arrangement"

Me "That sounds like a program with no freewill?"

ET: "We will catch up when you end this cycle"

Me: "Sounds like a 'KPI'!"

ET: "Did you read the terms and conditions?"

Me: .....

Jaxson

8043 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#350610 13-Jul-2010 12:50

Hey I'll jump in here and say thanks to all contributors.

(I haven't yet tried the test links as I can't download these from work, -no internet at home).

That said I can appreciate the TV may have different responses/configuration behaviours/rules depending on the type of input frequency/resolution etc.

Yes I my initial questions have been addressed so a big thanks for that. I now know to transfer accross the settings I find on the hdmi input to the TV tuner input, but also it's best to feed the hdmi input with something close to NZ broadcast rates, Pal 50hz.

The white level setting didn't behave as I'd expect but I may spend some time hunting through the PS3 output options. The PS3 has a bunch of these and to be fair Sony have very little explanation of what all of them do bar the obvious description of possible settings, on, auto off etc, but not what the feature actually achieves. Some are covered on the only help, but some are very vague.

Anyhow, hope some of the above content can be helpful to others too. Surely we all want to get the best from our display devices, or especially the easy stuff first!

fahrenheit

757 posts

Ultimate Geek

#350926 13-Jul-2010 17:10

Masterpiece:
Ok, we are digressing from the topic starters initial question, which I think has been answered.

Anyway, I'll finish with some observations, this may or maynot be the ultimate cause of luminance change for you.

A PS3, Xbox PC all have some common factors, that is in relation to gaming or to be more specific PC specs when it comes to gamuts.
One of importance is current video, no matter if it is PAL, HDrec709 or Rec601,NTSC,ATSC they all work with 16~235, where black is 16 and white is 235.
PC specs, sRGB gamut, although pretty much the same as HDrec709 by the 2 dimensional CIE gamut chart, actualy ranges from 0~255, black at 0 and white at 255.
The reason for the difference is legacy, nothing more. Broadcasting required some head and foot room for too allow for intolerances.

Now if the devices comunicated with correctness, that is when you send 24hz,50/60hz material, all is well, however it may be possible that something is hard wired to switch to the wrong range(Or a setting is wrong somewhere).
Facts are when you are gaming, 0~255 is probably in play, however if you force limited range in PS3 you could infact clip the bottom end of the black level, this would give you crushed blacks. You may not notice in a game since most have no basis of reality when it comes to luminance., it is set by a programmer.

I could be off base, however the Panel may be doing exactly as designed, responding to the inputs as the industry specs set.

Have you checked what setting your panel is in when you send the panel different rates.
Each panel mode, dynamic, standard, movie, eco track different gamma tracks.
If this changes with the different input rates you will see different luminance.

All tested and accounted for. Even blank inputs with no attached equipment follow the same behaviour. It is something that I cannot account for with source material/equipment. Its a function of the panel either through a fault or design shortcoming. As you say, something might be hardwired that sets it to the wrong range as soon as 60Hz is engaged.

Sharesies

Trade NZ and US shares and funds with Sharesies (affiliate link).

fahrenheit

757 posts

Ultimate Geek

#350948 13-Jul-2010 17:25

Jaxson:
The white level setting didn't behave as I'd expect but I may spend some time hunting through the PS3 output options. The PS3 has a bunch of these and to be fair Sony have very little explanation of what all of them do bar the obvious description of possible settings, on, auto off etc, but not what the feature actually achieves. Some are covered on the only help, but some are very vague.

PS3 set to Auto or RGB FULL by chance?
I see we also need to establish what mode you are using on the TV.
'Dynamic' should be avoided at all cost. 'Game' (if its anything like my V10) will have reduced options for tweaking RGB cuts etc and a massive blue push. Cinema might be useable with a lot of work, but 'Normal' is going to most likely give you the best starting point.

Jaxson

8043 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#351221 14-Jul-2010 08:38

Yeah I'd come to that same conclusion. Cinema for a movie, in a completely dark room but normal for all other conditions.

I know Samsung had different levels of signal manipulation depending on what input tag name you selected. PC would turn off most options and preserve the incoming signal as much as possible.

I suspect you are right in that any input signal at 60Hz assumes a source device by default.
Come the weekend I'll get around to downloading the files you linked to and can check from there. My S10 does not easily display the input signal info that I believe my previous Panasonic Projector did for example.

fahrenheit

757 posts

Ultimate Geek

#351264 14-Jul-2010 09:58

Jaxson: Yeah I'd come to that same conclusion. Cinema for a movie, in a completely dark room but normal for all other conditions.

Does the S10 allow you to change the gamma in the advanced menu? You'll want to use 2.2 rather than the 2.0 default.

My S10 does not easily display the input signal info that I believe my previous Panasonic Projector did for example.

Yes its a shame that it does not tell you the refresh rate but I think thats generally true for the Panasonic plasmas across all consumer models.

Jaxson

8043 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#351268 14-Jul-2010 10:05

fahrenheit: PS3 set to Auto or RGB FULL by chance?

Probably is set to Auto.
I have 24 and 50hz set to auto from mamory too.
(Basically figuring if any source is either of these, then yes I want the PS3 to be able to output this natively)

Where is the super secret setup menu?
(Or is it more obvioius?!) don't believe I've touched gamma thus far.

fahrenheit

757 posts

Ultimate Geek

#351280 14-Jul-2010 10:33

Jaxson:
fahrenheit: PS3 set to Auto or RGB FULL by chance?

Probably is set to Auto.

In the Display settings menu, change RGB to Limited. In the Video settting menu set it to YPrPb.

I have 24 and 50hz set to auto from mamory too.

Set 50Hz to = 50Hz.

Where is the super secret setup menu?
(Or is it more obvioius?!) don't believe I've touched gamma thus far.

On the V10 its in the main display menu on the second page (just keep scrolling down the list). Its called 'Advanced'.

1 | 2