TV calibration checks

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Jaxson

8041 posts

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#64019 6-Jul-2010 10:07

Hi all,

Probably a Masterpiece question but thought I'd ask in the forum in case it helps others.

Last night I used the AVS 709 patterns to have a crack at a basic black/white/sharpness calibration and did this for my hdmi 1, where the PS3 is connected. Two things came up during this.

First thing was, I'd like to know how people go about calibrating their TV tuner TV input.
On my Panasonic the settings appear to be remembered for each individual input source.
So I could setup hdmi 1 no problem but when I switched to the freeview TV tuner it reverts to it's stored settings for that input. Obviously I can't broadcast the test patterns, so how do people set this input up?
(I guess the same goes for any input where you can't feed a test pattern in, eg sky TV if you have it, satellite box etc).

Second was less interesting, but I couldn't change my contrast setting to have a significant effect on the white level patterns. Brightness worked fine to adjust the black levels, but I coulnd't really set the contrast to the suggested optimum points. Maybe the signal is being clipped by the PS3 for instance, but it was a no go attempt at setting the white level.

Anyway, just thought I'd ask what others are up to in this area?

1 | 2

757 posts

Ultimate Geek

#348409 6-Jul-2010 14:15

Are you using the AVCHD disc of AVS HD or just the mpeg4 files which you are playing back from the XMB?

Jaxson

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#348434 6-Jul-2010 15:12

Downloaded the self extracting AVCHD-v1_3.exe file.
This file expands to a 2gb iso file which I burnt to a DVD.
DVD then plays in PS3 as a DVD.

fahrenheit

757 posts

Ultimate Geek

#348445 6-Jul-2010 15:59

I take it you still have the S10?
The problem I had with my V10 is that 50Hz and 60Hz don't have the same luminance (gamma).

You can test this yourself with the files I have made here -
Black test samples

You will need 50Hz enabled in the PS3's video menu and you'll need a fairly dark environment to see the difference. The difference in luminance should look something like this...

0 IRE 50Hz vs 60Hz

I believe this is common with plasmas in 220-240v/50Hz territories.
If you dial-in the gamma at 60Hz, it will be out for 50Hz and vice versa.

Fortunately for me the V10 is capable of 24Hz which shares the same lower luminance of 50Hz signals so I can calibrate with AVS HD to 24p and get perfect settings for Freeview too.

It really is a shame because I'm a bigger gamer than TV/movie watcher, so everytime I change over to one of my consoles, my TV's black level diminishes.

You should confirm this behaviour on your S10 before venturing further.

Jaxson

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#348454 6-Jul-2010 16:21

On mine it appears to reset when I switch to the TV input, but I'll confirm this tonight.

If it does have different setups then this makes it a bit of a joke when I switch from something where I can input a calibration pattern to something like freeview where I obviously can't influence what they show.

I believe the S10 can do 24Hz too.
I'll do some more checks tonight before I say too much! Cheers.

fahrenheit

757 posts

Ultimate Geek

#348461 6-Jul-2010 16:35

Easiest way to do it, set the input for PS3 (HDMI 1 or whatever) to the exact same settings as TV (Freeview) and have one of the radio channels selected on Freeview.
Disable the banner in the TV's menu so that you won't see the info bar appear when you change sources (this would negatively influence your perception as the bright banner will constrict your pupils). Try looking at the lower part of the screen or covering over the top left where 'HDMI 1' and 'TV' appear.

Now when you switch between the 60Hz black on the PS3 and the 50Hz black on Freeview, you will be able to get a fast A-B comparison without any bright elements influencing your vision.

I suspect that the S10 accepts a 24Hz signal but converts to 60Hz. If not, then you'll be good to calibrate the PS3 input with it and then use the indentical settings for Freeview.

Jaxson

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#348645 7-Jul-2010 09:32

Ah so you're saying calibrate on PS3/any DVD input etc (set to 24Hz) and then transfer across the new hdmi settings to the TV settings.

That ties in with what I was saying earlier, that configuring the 4 or so modes (dynamic, normal, cinema, game) on one input, doesn't universally apply those settings across all inputs. I checked again last night and my new mode settings for the hdmi input were not the same as the equivalent mode when TV was selected.

I'll copy those settings across for a starting point at least. Can't see that there are many other options for calibrating a TV's Tuner input really as you can't control the broadcast pictures. I'll also need to see if I can bring up some info on the input signal, to see if I'm looking at a 24Hz input from the PS3 or not.

Will go and have another look tonight.
Cheers.

fahrenheit

757 posts

Ultimate Geek

#348716 7-Jul-2010 12:31

Yes, if you were to calibrate one input on say 'Normal', then you would calibrate all inputs using Normal with the exact same tweaks.

Tonight try this -

From the black test material I linked earlier, copy the 50Hz and 60Hz mpeg4 videos to your PS3 hard drive. Move the 24p AVCHD to a USB flashdrive and pop that into the PS3.

Playback the 60Hz mpeg4 straight from the XMB. Give your eyes time to adjust and observe the luminance, then quickly jump back to the XMB and play the 50Hz mpeg4. You will note that the screen dips in luminance and the 'HDMI 1' 1080p input' onscreen graphic will pop up on the top left of the screen (this shows that the refresh rate has changed).
Now go back to the 60Hz clip again and note that none of the OSD pops up when the clip starts playing and luminance doesn't change. Observe that luminance for a while then go back and play the AVCHD 24p clip...

If you don't see the same luminance drop and OSD popups as observed with the 50Hz clip, then your display is converting 24p sources to 60Hz.

Note that 50Hz needs to be set to '50Hz' in the PS3 video menu and 24Hz = On.

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Masterpiece

247 posts

Master Geek

#350160 12-Jul-2010 11:05

Think you might be misleading yourself there.

You simply cannot easily use the test patterns alone to set contrast on modern panels.
Best to leave contrast alone.

Set your black in an HDMI input, transfer those to Freeview.

Me:"I'm not a robot!"

ET: "Maybe; you have some freewill, but you chose your path by arrangement"

Me "That sounds like a program with no freewill?"

ET: "We will catch up when you end this cycle"

Me: "Sounds like a 'KPI'!"

ET: "Did you read the terms and conditions?"

Me: .....

fahrenheit

757 posts

Ultimate Geek

#350164 12-Jul-2010 11:09

Masterpiece: Think you might be misleading yourself there.

Sorry, what?
If you have something to add or correct, then you'll have to be a bit more expansive than that.

Masterpiece

247 posts

Master Geek

#350171 12-Jul-2010 11:23

No need to be aggressive.

Just think you might be misleading yourself with what is happening, thats all.

Firstly, the term IRE is a voltage discription and has no place in luminance patterns as made here.

How do you know that black at 0 is not clipped?

You should not use a full field raster to prove levels on a plasma.

Me:"I'm not a robot!"

ET: "Maybe; you have some freewill, but you chose your path by arrangement"

Me "That sounds like a program with no freewill?"

ET: "We will catch up when you end this cycle"

Me: "Sounds like a 'KPI'!"

ET: "Did you read the terms and conditions?"

Me: .....

Jaxson

8041 posts

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Trusted

#350190 12-Jul-2010 11:56

Masterpiece: Set your black in an HDMI input, transfer those to Freeview.

Cheers Masterpiece, that answers one of my main questions, as in how do you calibrate for TV sources when you can't display any charts etc.

Other issue I have (and in advance I accept these are primative corrections) is that adjusting the contrast scale on my TV (whilst displaying a contrast targeted pattern display) doesn't really seem to influence the cut off point at the top end of the display pattern. It makes the tv brighter or dimmer as such, but doesn't really do what I was expecting to see, ie satturate the whiteness pattern or not etc. Hope that kind of makes sense?

Black level display/brightness behaves exactly like I was expecting.
So guess question is, where should I be putting the contrast setting on the tv?

fahrenheit

757 posts

Ultimate Geek

#350203 12-Jul-2010 12:15

Masterpiece: No need to be aggressive.

Just think you might be misleading yourself with what is happening, thats all.

You entered in here and made a vague comment without supposition or solution.
You might have edited that post now, but the fact remains, my quote of yours was the entire intial offering.
In the absence of anything constructive from you, I could only assume the goal was plain and simple trolling.
If you aren't ready to hit the 'Post Reply' button in future, then please don't.

Firstly, the term IRE is a voltage discription and has no place in luminance patterns as made here.

Oh so you've got another term you prefer for a black field for testing zero luminance then? OK, lets hear it...

How do you know that black at 0 is not clipped?

Clipped where? At the source file? Or on the display?

You should not use a full field raster to prove levels on a plasma.

In this instance it doesn't matter one iota. We are trying to prove native 24p support vs 3:2 pulldown conversion.

Masterpiece:
Set your black in an HDMI input, transfer those to Freeview.

Not if that input is 60Hz.

Masterpiece

247 posts

Master Geek

#350231 12-Jul-2010 13:10

Jaxson,

As I stated earlier, just leave contrast to default.
Test patterns of contrast don't work that well on modern panels, well they do, but you need other measurements to understand what is happening.

They will work on Projectors though.

fahrenheit,
you are far to aggressive, thats the impression you give me,

1. Luminance
2. Either,one or the other
3. Not sure what you are trying to prove here in regards to basic calibration, black and white levels.
4. Panasonic panels do have descrete memories, however I've not seen different liuminance levels for any HD content no matter what the frequency.

Me:"I'm not a robot!"

ET: "Maybe; you have some freewill, but you chose your path by arrangement"

Me "That sounds like a program with no freewill?"

ET: "We will catch up when you end this cycle"

Me: "Sounds like a 'KPI'!"

ET: "Did you read the terms and conditions?"

Me: .....

fahrenheit

757 posts

Ultimate Geek

#350259 12-Jul-2010 14:09

Masterpiece:

fahrenheit,
you are far to aggressive, thats the impression you give me,

Don't expect me to be civil after poking me with a stick.
To enter the thread and contribute only "Think you might be misleading yourself there." is rude and dismissive. I respect anyones right to challenge the information or methodology I put forward, but posts void of content such as yours was, can only be taken at face value. You weren't only rude to me, you were rude to the OP for not offering him anything useful. It wasn't till after I called you on it that you edited the post.

1. Luminance

That is the name you would denote to a 0% black source? Huh?

2. Either,one or the other

I made the source material myself. From start to finish. Whether the plasma clips black higher for 60Hz sources is another matter. How would you test for it?

3. Not sure what you are trying to prove here in regards to basic calibration, black and white levels.

See below.

4. Panasonic panels do have descrete memories, however I've not seen different liuminance levels for any HD content no matter what the frequency.

Well then my V10 is defective. So too are the panels of the people I asked to check for the same behaviour in their (50Hz territory) panels.

60Hz

24p

24p and 50Hz sources exhibit the same luminance level. 60Hz is inflated. This is apparently normal behavior for these panels.
I am a gamer and I see this luminance jump everytime I switch on one of my consoles.
HDMI 1 - 4 sit idle expecting a 60Hz source with this inflated level. As soon as I switch back to Freeview, the panel luminance dips.

Here is the difference at 0% -
50Hz vs 60Hz

Inlight of this obvious difference, calibration at 60Hz cannot be accurate for 50Hz or 24p source. Not on these panels at least.

Masterpiece

247 posts

Master Geek

#350283 12-Jul-2010 15:02

My intension was not meant to offend, I just thought your process could mislead the topic starter, even if your intensions were to help them.

1.Luminance is luminance, 0 is nothing 100 is full, not my terms personally, its the industry terms. IRE is for voltage where 0IRE is equal 7.5v, legacy from CRT technology.

2. By isolation, limited by weakest link, ie a non reference device as a PS3 is I'm afraid.
They aren't bad, however they are a consumer device and there is a degree of variance from device to device.

3&4 Suspect something else, I have an idea, but I try not to jump to conclusions in such things as it is easy to be wrong, as I have been in the past with something similar.

I don't think you Panasonic panel is defective, it is reacting for a reason, I believe you what you are saying, that is you are seeing changes when you are not expecting it.

Me:"I'm not a robot!"

ET: "Maybe; you have some freewill, but you chose your path by arrangement"

Me "That sounds like a program with no freewill?"

ET: "We will catch up when you end this cycle"

Me: "Sounds like a 'KPI'!"

ET: "Did you read the terms and conditions?"

Me: .....

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