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Forums › Home Theatre (including HTPC and EPG Collector) › How important is HD, really?
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cadman
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  #1785967 22-May-2017 13:46
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Senecio:

 

This is 2017. We have access to 4K HDR screens at a relatively affordable cost and many of us have access to >100 Mbit internet.

 

 

I can't presently justify 100Mbps internet. I certainly can't justify a 4K TV or monitor. Most people are like this.



richms
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  #1786006 22-May-2017 15:13
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While blurry crap bothers me, what annoys me more is crappy framerate conversion with massive judder etc.

 

While motionplus does a largly ok of fixing up low framerates (24/25/30) it can only do that if it has not been mangled from one into another by the broadcaster conforming it to some antique standard made when TVs had power supplies so crappy that mains ripple got into them so the broadcast had to match.

 

4% speedup was bad, doubled frames once a second is worse, but the most horrid is the one where they blend frames together. All those make something become totally unwatchable. The frame blending one even looks trash with it in game mode so no interpolation is being done.

 

Shimmering edges from being downscaled for broadcast, then usually scaled from 480i to 576i with crap conversion of the framerate and then upscale again on the TV makes things look terrible. Take the source 480i 60Hz signal and watch it and it is vastly better. Look at the US sourced news channels for something that looks like trash most of the time because of the needless conversions.




Richard rich.ms

Senecio
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  #1786096 22-May-2017 16:58
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cadman:

 

Senecio:

 

This is 2017. We have access to 4K HDR screens at a relatively affordable cost and many of us have access to >100 Mbit internet.

 

 

I can't presently justify 100Mbps internet. I certainly can't justify a 4K TV or monitor. Most people are like this.

 

 

 

 

Understood, but I was careful to choose my words. We have access to them, but each of us has the choice whether we want to invest our hard earned cash or not. Why should those of us who do chose spend our money on the latest tech be held back because others don't/can't?



Rikkitic

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  #1786106 22-May-2017 17:31
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Senecio:

 

Understood, but I was careful to choose my words. We have access to them, but each of us has the choice whether we want to invest our hard earned cash or not. Why should those of us who do chose spend our money on the latest tech be held back because others don't/can't?

 

 

Uh, I don't get that. Why does it have to be one or the other?

 

 




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Batman
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  #1786144 22-May-2017 19:16
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meanwhile on our 50" 4K tv even sd looks terrific. not sure what it does to the image - if you go near it you see all sorts of artefacts but from viewing distance, clear as anything, unlike our old Full HD tv - feed it anythng other than HD and it will look like it's done a vomit.

Batman
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  #1786146 22-May-2017 19:17
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cadman:

 

Senecio:

 

This is 2017. We have access to 4K HDR screens at a relatively affordable cost and many of us have access to >100 Mbit internet.

 

 

I can't presently justify 100Mbps internet. I certainly can't justify a 4K TV or monitor. Most people are like this.

 

 

FWIW, i got a 4K 50" very smart tv for 1 thousand dollars.

Senecio
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  #1786154 22-May-2017 19:41
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Rikkitic:

Senecio:

 

Understood, but I was careful to choose my words. We have access to them, but each of us has the choice whether we want to invest our hard earned cash or not. Why should those of us who do choose spend our money on the latest tech be held back because others don't/can't?

 

 

Uh, I don't get that. Why does it have to be one or the other?

 

 

 

 

It shouldn't be one or the other, but it is because broadcasters are allowed to broadcast in SD. My gripe is with the regulators that still allow SD content to be broadcast exclusively. It's 2017, every channel should be available in HD. Broadcast SD simultaneously but regulators should enforce HD.

 

 

Going one step further there should also be regulations on bit rate. Low bit rate HD content is an eyesore.

 
 
 
 

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JimmyH
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  #1786168 22-May-2017 19:52
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It's not up to the regulators to dictate picture quality to broadcasters, and I can't think why it should be.

 

Ultimately, if you consider someone is offering a lousy product, don't subscribe or view it. If they don't offer something good enough to retail subscribers/viewers compared to the alternatives, then they will go out of business. That's how the market works.

dickytim
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  #1786325 23-May-2017 07:28
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So is SD actually getting worse or are we being spoiled with HD?

 

I have noticed sometimes the SD feed feels horrible but I don't recall it ever looking as bad as it does now.

Jaxson
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  #1786460 23-May-2017 09:40
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How important is HD, really?

 

It varies dependant on the viewer/owner.

 

 

 

To me, it's super important, as is surround sound.
That said, content beats visuals alone, but given the opportunity I'd personally pay for HD or 4K versions.  eg when I had Sky I paid extra for the HD ticket.

 

* Your results may vary.

Rikkitic

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  #1786466 23-May-2017 09:45
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Many people go on about 4k but from what I have been reading, most existing 4k tvs are not compatible with the new HDCP standard so can't play 4k content anyway. How does that work? Can you actually get any 4k content?

 

 

 

 




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richms
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  #1786488 23-May-2017 10:20
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No most are compatible. It was the first lot that lacked hdcp 2.2. not many of those sold and even crappy house brand displays have hdcp 2.2 and HDMI 2.0 now.

It's the different colour profiles that are the problem now. Not helped when marketing dumb it down to just "HDR" branding.




Richard rich.ms

Jaxson
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  #1786491 23-May-2017 10:20
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Rikkitic:

 

Can you actually get any 4k content?

 

 

 

 

 

Aw come on man, it's 2017

 

 

 

YouTube and Netflix both stream 4K content, when it's available.

 

YouTube has been doing this for 2 years now, and Netflix for a year or so?

 

And there are 4K Blurays if you want to pay extra for them.  The Xbox One S can play these discs, so a player is quite cheap.

 

 

 

 

Rikkitic

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  #1786641 23-May-2017 13:01
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My question was in regard to HDCP. I meant can you get any playable 4K content. I had the impression that many TVs wouldn't do 4k HDCP. Richms answered that.




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Masterpiece
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  #1787060 23-May-2017 20:34
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The same pros and cons were part of the transition from PAL to Rec709, HD TV.

Will I see any difference between 1080 and PAL???, was a common question and in the early days of transition very little difference was seen mainly because the industry was being held back by legacy of old material needing to be displayed along with new standards. This was in the form of upscaled content, which still happens today.

The difficulty with 4k, which to be correct isn't 4k, sigh another argument. The standard is Rec2020 with addition of HDR tacked on with safety pins. Actually the Rec2020 (4k aka 2160p) was going to be relatively straight forward, even though current displays can only hit about DCI(P3) colour volume, the container was originally going to be as HD at 100nits, which arguably meant transforms of colour space were fairly straight forward wrapped in the Rec2020 container at 100nits. Then along came HDR, this is another whole big problem of standards and development still under progression. The consumer is now caught in a double jump transition of technologies and to compound the problems, copy protection was added, yippie, however HDMI transport was needing to be upgraded, hence HDMI2.0b well actually 2.1 chip-sets are being designed now.

Don't forget we went from HDMI 1 through to HDMI 1.4 over about 5~7 years with HDCP thrown in for good measure, many consumers got stung by early adoption.

Do I need it or will I see a difference?
I haven't bothered to upgrade my house hold yet, I don't believe things have settled enough yet within the engines, you could argue there is a under the hood VHS v Beta war between manufactures in the way HDR is mapped. Although my calibration equipment is capable of 4k+HDR under the realms of what is current, the targets are somewhat loose.

Like HD,Rec709, in time there will be no choice in whether you need it as when you replace a display it will be the current level.

Seeing the new world is a different problem.
HDR actually requires a darkened (but not blackout) room to see the sub 20% levels and differentiate gradations as intended.
The upper end is less of an issue, but the reason you need some background light is a fatigue problem because looking at bright highlights in blackout can and does cause eye strain. As displays get better at producing brighter images keep an eye(pun) on this.

The resolution problem; the old viewing distance of the Rec709 1080p standard is 25~36 degrees, 30 degrees being a sweet spot. 4k is somewhere around 50+ degrees to take in the full benefit of this resolution. It's not that you won't see differences at longer ranges, there is a "seeing" effect where you kinda feel the detail you can't make out, just the easy benefit is at optimal distances. After being in a number of peoples houses calibrating their displays only a few viewed 1080p in the sweet spot, most of them were projection with 100" + screens. 4k displays are typically 55~65" with a few larger, where consumers will drop...'place' the new display into the same location and sit were they always sit.

The saving grace, and why HDR will eventually dominate is ability to see light and dark in the same scene as per our natural vision. It is highly likely that resolution will effectively piggy back off high dynamic range, not the other way round. This means the viewing distance will arguably be secondary to ideal lighting (viewing) conditions.

in the end, it is still the content you absorb, not the method.






alhough it is good in your own movie theatre with good techy stuff!




Me:"I'm not a robot!"

 

ET: "Maybe; you have some freewill, but you chose your path by arrangement"

 

Me "That sounds like a program with no freewill?"

 

ET: "We will catch up when you end this cycle"

 

Me: "Sounds like a 'KPI'!"

 

ET: "Did you read the terms and conditions?"

 

Me: .....

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