FreeView Questions (Decoders & Installation)

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#62276 28-Feb-2007 14:38

OK have a question for those that already have decoders. Currently we have Telstra Digital TV and I have a HDD recorder. With Telstra Digital you can tune the HDD recorders TV tuner into the FTA channels which means that it can record TV1,2,3, Prime and C4 without the Digital Decoder having to be switched to that channel.

Is a similar thing possible with the digital decoders for freeview?

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cyril7

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#62283 28-Feb-2007 15:12

Telstra's cable service currently operates both the old analog system with each channel being a standard VSB signal however all bar the FTAs, Guide and promo channels are scrambled, and several DVB-C (c=Cable) carriers that carry their digital service.

You would appear to be tuning your HDD recorder to the unscrambled analog FTA transmissions on the cable.

DVB-S transmissions that come from a satellite are not suitable for putting down a cable network as the QPSK modulation method is not effiecient enough. The DVB-C system uses QAM modulation. Therefore I doubt Telstra will put a DVB-S signal down the cable for your FTA DVB-T STB work with. The DVB-T standard used for terrestial transmissions is also unlikely to be put down the Telstra cable as whilst it has the same channel occupancy of a DVB-C transmission it is not as efficient, however has superiour echo cancelation in terristial applications.

So to answer your question, you will require Telstra DVB-C box to recieve all channels via the Telstra Digtial service. How long Telstra keep the analog service going is anyones guess, but I would say for a few years yet.

Cyril

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#62285 28-Feb-2007 15:25

Sorry my question was not for the Telstra service instead I was asking if you can do the same sort of thing with a DVB-S and/or DVB-T STB?

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#62286 28-Feb-2007 15:27

lol apparently I get around.. one post I am in the USA the next in Australia. All without leaving my office in NZ

lchiu7

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#62293 28-Feb-2007 16:06

cyril7: Telstra's cable service currently operates both the old analog system with each channel being a standard VSB signal however all bar the FTAs, Guide and promo channels are scrambled, and several DVB-C (c=Cable) carriers that carry their digital service.

You would appear to be tuning your HDD recorder to the unscrambled analog FTA transmissions on the cable.

DVB-S transmissions that come from a satellite are not suitable for putting down a cable network as the QPSK modulation method is not effiecient enough. The DVB-C system uses QAM modulation. Therefore I doubt Telstra will put a DVB-S signal down the cable for your FTA DVB-T STB work with. The DVB-T standard used for terrestial transmissions is also unlikely to be put down the Telstra cable as whilst it has the same channel occupancy of a DVB-C transmission it is not as efficient, however has superiour echo cancelation in terristial applications.

So to answer your question, you will require Telstra DVB-C box to recieve all channels via the Telstra Digtial service. How long Telstra keep the analog service going is anyones guess, but I would say for a few years yet.

Cyril

Sounds like TCL will do with freeview what they currently do with the other digital feeds they get from Sky - recompress/reformat for cable transmission. I just purchased a DVB-S box and will be interested to compare the signal from that box for say TV1 and what TCL now sends.

As for how long the analogue cable will be around it is as you say anybody's guess but I am sure they are looking at ways to accelerate its demise. Given one analogue channel can provide enough bandwidth for 3 or 4 digital channels (I guess) it must be a strong driver to get rid of them and be able to deploy more channels (PPV!)

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

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#62299 28-Feb-2007 16:33

Sorry my question was not for the Telstra service instead I was asking if you can do the same sort of thing with a DVB-S and/or DVB-T STB?

No I think you mis read my answer, then again I ramble alot so hardly surprising.

You cannot connect a DVB-S or DVB-T STB to the Telstra cable service and get the FTA channels, period. You will require a DVB-C STB as supplied by TCL with appropriate decryption. As I said the DVB-S signal will not fit down their cable, and the DVB-T signal whilst it would fit and work, why would they as they are will be taking the FreeView service signals off D1 and transcoding (or demuxing/remuxing) to DVB-C to support there DVB-C service, why would they put the DVB-T signal down, they are not a charity.

It is possible that they would broadcast the FTA channels "in the clear" on their DVB-C service, so you could purchase a FTA DVB-C STB from somewhere and tune in, but as I understand it that is not currently the case.

FTA DVB-C boxs can be found (but not in NZ) but as the propagation media they use is normally owned by someone (cable operators) most DVB-C boxs are only sold to cable operators and contain CA CAMs that make them a little dearer. DVB-C PCI cards are readily availble.

The fact that the analog FTA's are currently FTA on the analog cable is most likely a result of some terms of contract with the FTA broadcasters.

Cyril

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#62309 28-Feb-2007 17:00

LOL I really should be more clear about my questions

What I mean is if you have a DVB-S STB plugged into a dish on your roof (I have an ex sky dish like so many people) can you tune into the FTA channels "like" you can with the Telstra box i.e. without the STB having to be switched to the channel you want to record.

Hope I am not still being as clear as mud.

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cyril7

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#62311 28-Feb-2007 17:08

A standard DVB STB has only one tuner in it (either S,T or C) and one transport stripper, and one mpeg decoder, thus it will output only one video stream at any time. Plugging the Lband feed from the dish LNB into your VCR will achieve nothing.

A PVR on the other hand has two tuners thus can tune into two muxs (or bouqet) at anytime, and two transport strippers, some have two mpeg decoders, but most have just one. With these you can watch one channel, and have another channel on either the same mux or anyother streamed to the internal hard disc for replay latter. Note a PVR does not decode to record to disc, the transport stipper pulls the requested mpeg streams from the DVB stream and spools them to disc.

Hope this answers your question.

As you can see, the VCR is dead, actually it died a long time ago, anyone who has used a DVR or PVR (including the Sky version called MySky) will tell you to feed your tapes to the local landfill.

Interesting, I'm in Aus, thats odd, I am sure I was in Kapiti last time I looked out the window. Thats it, must get out some more!

Cyril

lchiu7

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#62313 28-Feb-2007 17:21

cyril7:
Sorry my question was not for the Telstra service instead I was asking if you can do the same sort of thing with a DVB-S and/or DVB-T STB?

...

It is possible that they would broadcast the FTA channels "in the clear" on their DVB-C service, so you could purchase a FTA DVB-C STB from somewhere and tune in, but as I understand it that is not currently the case.

FTA DVB-C boxs can be found (but not in NZ) but as the propagation media they use is normally owned by someone (cable operators) most DVB-C boxs are only sold to cable operators and contain CA CAMs that make them a little dearer. DVB-C PCI cards are readily availble.
...
Cyril

A number of US cable operators send their FTA HD channels in the clear so to speak down the cable. So all you need to view them is a TV set with a ATSC QAM tuner - no cable box required at all. A friend of mine over there has picked up a PC card that incorporates such a tuner with the view of capturing HD FTA television to watch at his convenience.

I doubt if we will ever see TV sets with DVB-C tuners in them here - the market for cable TV is so small.

Staying in Wellington. Check out my AirBnB in the Wellington CBD. https://www.airbnb.co.nz/h/wellycbd PM me and mention GZ to get a 15% discount and no AirBnB charges.

cyril7

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#62315 28-Feb-2007 17:27

Yep Larry, was aware of that they send ATSC 8VSB off air transmission directly over DVB-C networks, however it seems not very common to send DVB-T over DVB-C networks. There is no real reason other than it has a much lower bitrate/bandwidth effiecency than QAM so I guess is seen as no no, then again 8VSB is not that much more effeicient either. Guess its just the way that seemed easiest, does save cable operators the need to provide any significant equipement to support the FTA 8VSB operators.

Also most TV's over 25" (i think thats the size) in the US are now sold with 8VSB tuners built in, and most of them include a DVB-C QAM demod as well so you can access the cable channels without a cable box. Other than the actual QAM decoder all the other bits (RF/IF, transport handler, mpeg decoders) are needed to support 8VSB. Not all US cable operators encrypt all their channels, so you can access all the local FTA networks and various other free programming, but you will need either a cable opertaors provided box to see the rest of the programming, or again alot of TV's with these DVB-C decoders include a CA CAM so you just need the cable operators CA card.

Cyril

lchiu7

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#62341 28-Feb-2007 19:41

cyril7:..

Also most TV's over 25" (i think thats the size) in the US are now sold with 8VSB tuners built in, and most of them include a DVB-C QAM demod as well so you can access the cable channels without a cable box. Other than the actual QAM decoder all the other bits (RF/IF, transport handler, mpeg decoders) are needed to support 8VSB. Not all US cable operators encrypt all their channels, so you can access all the local FTA networks and various other free programming, but you will need either a cable opertaors provided box to see the rest of the programming, or again alot of TV's with these DVB-C decoders include a CA CAM so you just need the cable operators CA card.

Cyril

I think what you are referring to here is what they call Cablecard. Apparently the takeup has been poor since there have been technology issues plus the cablecard, while decrypting the channels does not allow for PPV or the EPG

Again nothing that impacts us here. Though I think sub from gbpvr did post a while back a way to decrypt (legally) the TCL digital channels without using the STB so that it could be recorded on a PC.

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#62342 28-Feb-2007 19:47

Thanks for that. It does answer the question. Not the answer I was hoping for of course but an answer none the less.

So next question is.. can you program recording reminders into your average DVB-S STB? and do you/can you use the EPG for that like on Telstra digital? Also can you get DVB STB's that have two "tuners" so that you can watch one channel while recording another?

cyril7

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#62392 1-Mar-2007 08:04

The Freeview service will be using MHEG-5 as the basis for EPG and interactive operation. Basic DVB-S boxs dont support MHEG-5, and at this point there is some confusion as to if the current basic EIT based EPG that TVNZ uses will be left running once FreeView is in full operation. So bascially at this point I cannot answer your question, other than to say that like Sky STB's some basic DVB-S boxs will let you set reminders for the purpose of recording, but many do not, however they rely on the basic EIT based EPG method to operate, if that is not left running once the MHEG-5 system is started then who knows. What features FreeViews MHEG-5 software will allow is anyones guess.

The only STB's with dual tuners that I have seen are ones that are PVR's with integral HDD's.

Cyril

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#62393 1-Mar-2007 08:11

Just to add to the thread there have been posts elsewhere this week indicating a launch of the Freeview DVB-S service in May this year. The DVB-T service is supposed to launch in both Auckland and Wellington in February next year. DVB-S will be SD MPEG2 only at launch, DVB-T will be transmitting both SD and HD.

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#62394 1-Mar-2007 08:12

DVB-T will be transmitting both SD and HD

More importantly using mpeg4.

Cyril

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