FreeView Questions (Decoders & Installation)

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78 posts

Master Geek

#11934 19-Feb-2007 17:47

Got a few questions on the FreeView Decoders:

Are there decoders that support both terrestrial and satellite ie. DVB-T & DVB-S?
The Optus C1 has the SBS channels as "Encrypted" and need a smart card...How do obtain this smart card and what type of decoder do I need to look for to use this smart-card?
What does it mean by decoders having smart card readers for IRDETO/CONAX/XCAM etc...
Are there any On-Going costs at all for FreeView TV?

Satellite/Decoder Installation:

Is it possible to connect my satellite and UHF antenna to a diplexer to combine the signals, if one is Analogue and the other Digital?
Are all satellites 75 Ohms? (Just wondering if I'm going to need a BALUN).

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#61265 19-Feb-2007 19:29

pm: Got a few questions on the FreeView Decoders:

Are there decoders that support both terrestrial and satellite ie. DVB-T & DVB-S?
The Optus C1 has the SBS channels as "Encrypted" and need a smart card...How do obtain this smart card and what type of decoder do I need to look for to use this smart-card?
What does it mean by decoders having smart card readers for IRDETO/CONAX/XCAM etc...
Are there any On-Going costs at all for FreeView TV?

Satellite/Decoder Installation:

Is it possible to connect my satellite and UHF antenna to a diplexer to combine the signals, if one is Analogue and the other Digital?
Are all satellites 75 Ohms? (Just wondering if I'm going to need a BALUN).

1. There are receivers that do both - but whether there will be any certified as "Freeview compatible" is another question.

2&3. Some decoders have a smart card reader so that a CAM module can be inserted and with the appropiate card you can decode the transmission in much the same way existing Sky decoders work. If you check out some of the Aussie PayTV forums you'll find a lot of info.

4. There won't be any ongoing costs for freeview to watch the basic channels however any advanced features that they may impliment in the future could possibly cost money such as interactive stuff.

5. No you can't connect a sat & UHF antenna together

6. You don't need a balun for a sat since the cable goes straight from the LNB into the receiver.

pm

78 posts

Master Geek

#61287 19-Feb-2007 23:33

Thanks for the answers.

The SBS australian channels just say they are encrypted ie. nothing about PayTV. (Although maybe some channels are PayTV.)
I guess my question is if the SBS channels received on the 45cm dishes free or not?
If they are free then how do I obtain the smart-card for them?

I'm a bit slack on the net and couldn't find any aussie payTV forums.

cyril7

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#61293 20-Feb-2007 06:59

There are decoders that support both DVB-S and T however todate I have only seen ones that support mpeg2. I am aware that there was samples of pre production units that did mpeg4 and DVB-S/T, so they do exist, but purhaps not readily available today.

The Optus Aurora service uses Iredto encryption, you need to apply to Optus for this, however you will need to supply an Aussie address that is not covererd by any terrestial transmissions of the ABC or SBS to obtain such a card. Essentially it is illegal for domestic ABC and SBS programming to be viewed in NZ, if you were to obtain a card by whatever means you are transgressing various laws.

Yes you can diplex a sat Lband signal with the signals from a UHF antenna, I have a sample of that operating just here.

Cyril

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Master Geek

#61322 20-Feb-2007 13:29

Thanks cyril7, I think I'll just wait till next year when digital TV is available on UHF, since the main reason for going to satellite was to improve VHF reception...

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#61325 20-Feb-2007 14:28

pm: Thanks cyril7, I think I'll just wait till next year when digital TV is available on UHF, since the main reason for going to satellite was to improve VHF reception...

How far from a transmission site do you live? If you have poor TV coverage with a VHF aerial at present your DVB-T signal may be worse or non existant. DVB-T is essentially going to replace an outside TV aerial primarily in metropolitan areas with strong terrestrial signals, with the satellite option delivering the same content for the rest of the country.

Since the same content will be on both platforms why would you be interested in a box that does both DBV-T and DVB-S?

cyril7

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#61335 20-Feb-2007 16:22

As sbiddle says, why do you need both, just get a DVB-S STB and be done withit. Again if your VHF reception is bad now what makes you think that DVB-T will be any better. Sure it helps fix ghosting, but if you have variable and low signal levels then it will not be very reliable. I can assure you that while DVB-T is very magic, unlike analog tv where a slight change in ghosting with propagation changes is tolerable, the click and stutter of fading DVB-T reception is totally untolerable to my thinking.

DVB-S is the most consistant and reliable broadcast method we currently have. Since D1 has gone into service and C/N ratios have increased by some 3-4dB, rain fade should virtually be totally banished, or at least reserved for those moments when you cant hear the TV due to the deafing rain on the roof anyway.

Other than the option of future HD transissions on the DVB-T network, I doubt there will be a lot of difference between the services.

Cyril

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Master Geek

#61341 20-Feb-2007 17:39

sbiddle:

I don't know where the nearest transmission site is but heres my situation:
4 years ago I had Excellent VHF and UHF reception. Now I have poor VHF and still Excellent UHF reception. I rewired/rechecked the aerial connections/cables but found no solution to why the VHF reception became poor. Now, DVB-T is supposed to be released sometime next year and be used over the UHF band (which I get perfect reception off).
Also, as far as FreeView is concerned DVB-T & DVB-S do not have the same content. DVB-S does not deliver Channel 3, C4, Triangle, Prime, Juice...However next year all these channels will be in digital format and my UHF antenna will pick it up.

cyril7:

I needed a decoder that could do both so I can get some of the FreeView channels as well as the terrestrial channels that will come out next year.
I have no ghosting effects at all but snowy poor reception (I don't think interference is the problem as well, since I checked that out).

Unless you guys know for sure that the FreeView channels will be broadcasted over terrestrial next year then there is no need for two decoders.

One other thing cyril7, an antenna technician told me (BOLDLY) that you cannot diplex a digital satellite with an analogue UHF...Now I'm confused because digital satellite data is modulated onto an analogue signal, so I don't see why you can't diplex them.

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#61346 20-Feb-2007 18:32

I can assure you you can diplex both V/UHF analog and Sat LBand IF signals together into one coax, and using an identical diplexer seperate them again at the other end. If the tech you spoke to BOLDLY stated otherwise, then I suggest you avoid him. As an RF engineer with 25years experience, 10 of them with the old BCNZ I can assure you can diplex them.

Wioth regards to DVB-T, COFDM is excellent for sorting ghosting, but bad at sorting impulse and broadband noise issues (ie low signal levels). This is one area that the US ATSC system excels.

Cyril

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#61355 20-Feb-2007 19:45

You can't diplex them if you have a masthead amplifier since they typically run AC up the cable to power the amplifier.

Also bad VHF and great UHF reception is very common so the DVB-T service being on UHF should reach a lot of people that currently have crap tv 1 reception since its stuck way down at the bottom of the VHF band in most places.

All up, if they were to pull finger and get the service up and running at the same time as the sat one, it would be better since otherwise people will go out of their way to get a dish which will be redundant in a few months time. Also still no word from them about what the plans will be with all the repeaters around Auckland and dvb-t - the eastern bays and remuera thru to the tamaki river would be the prime areas to sell boxes too since people there all get useless waiatarua reception and have loads of money.

Richard rich.ms

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Master Geek

#61359 20-Feb-2007 19:55

Since your an RF engineer, I was wondering if its possible to ask the people/organisation responsible to increase the VHF gain in the closest transmission tower?
Its just that VHF used to be perfect and since I can't find a fault on my end I have a feeling they reduced there signal strength...Out of curiosity, do they reduce the strength if more people have SKY in a particular area?

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#61371 20-Feb-2007 21:35

Hi pm, please identify transmission site from http://www.lincrad.co.nz/transmitters.htm and provide a brief description of your antenna configuration, e.g., polarisation, number of elements for each band etc.

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#61377 20-Feb-2007 22:13

I had no idea that there was so many repeaters out around the place! People that have an antenna at those must be annoyed with their lack of selection. Is the VHF channel spacing wide enough to support DVB-T? perhaps those could be re-purposed in the future. I know people with a batch out piha that take their sky box every weekend just to be able to watch TV

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cyril7

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#61382 20-Feb-2007 22:23

Yes you can get diplexers that pass DC on both ports, thus the Sat STB will power both the LNB and any DC feed V/UHF amps. In particular these full DC pass diplexers are designed for passing IR controls, and as such will pass both 50Hz feeds and 38kHz IR feeds. That said the commonly available diplexers (sell for around $12/end) only pass DC on the Lband port, but other options can be readily found.

It is not common practice to alter Tx powers willy nilly, and definitely just because another service such as Sky becomes more predominant. VHF channneling will most likely never be used for DVB-T transmissions, there is just too much implulse noise (a major failing of COFDM DVB-T systems). The current NZ DVB-T band plans is only for Bands IV/V, there is no intention or plan to use either BandI or III.

I understand that the current Kordia/BCL plan is to only deploy main Tx's from 9-11 main sites, there is no intention to deploy translaters as the DVB-S service will be far more cost effective and technically effective.

If you have ever lived in either the UK or Aus and relied on DVB-T as a transmission method, and have at any point also had DVB-S as a carrier you will understand that DVB-S is by far more consistant and reliable. No problem if you are in a good UHF signal area, absolute pain if you are in a marginal coverage area.

Cyril

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Master Geek

#61398 21-Feb-2007 09:57

Spyware:

I live in Bucklands Beach so my closest Towers are:

"COCKLE BAY" (Thats TV2 and Vertically polarised - my antenna is Horizontally polarised).
"SKY TOWER" (TV3 & TV4 - Horizontally polarised & sky tower is completely visible from my location).
"ONETANGI" (TV1 & TV2 - Horizontally polarised)

I have 2 seperate antennas an 8 element VHF (5 Long elements and 3 short) and 43 element UHF both horizontally polarised.
They both enter a single masthead amp/diplexer, this enters the power injector in the lounge. Antenna output of injector goes into a splitter which sends 1 signal into the wall (for other TV's in the house) and another signal into the VCR (which outputs to the TV).

I hope thats what you needed.

pm

78 posts

Master Geek

#61400 21-Feb-2007 10:09

Spyware:

If it helps the AC voltage measured at the wall ports and at the antenna output after the power injector is roughly 900mV. Which apparently corresponds to 59dBmV on that site you listed. (Kind of an unusual unit to use for signal gain...)

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