CGA Part Deux

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thecripplernz

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#101730 7-May-2012 19:15

Hi, early last year I started a thread about my dealings with a faulty Macbook, Apple and the CGA... That turned out good on my end. Success!

But now I might be making another trip to the tribunal office.

I have a 42 inch LCD that has developed a serious fault with the screen, discoloration etc this has been looked at by a Toshiba authorized repairer, and its uneconomical to fix... Needs a new panel, and thats roughly the cost of the TV new.

The TV is 3 years and 10 months old... Not too old, but much younger than I would expect a TV to last, LCD or otherwise. (The consumer article states a life expectancy of 12+ years, jeepers!)

I have contacted the store I purchased the TV from, a lengthy discussion ensued with the manager which involved me asking to organise a return and sort a refund... which Is what the CGA entitles me to do

"If the fault is serious or can’t be

remedied

If the problem with the goods can’t be

fixed, or the problem is a serious one, you

(not the trader) can choose between:

• rejecting the goods and asking for a:

– refund, or

– replacement if goods of the same type

and similar value are reasonably

available to the trader

• keeping the goods but asking for

compensation to make up for the drop in

value caused by the fault."

As you would probably have guessed, i didn't get what I requested... The manager claimed that they don't have to offer a refund at all, and they would get in touch with the manufacturer on my behalf and try and sort something out... Which i'm lucky to get considering the TV is well out of the manufacturers warranty and they don't have to help me at all...

The manager then went onto mention that they have won every case they have ever had with the disputes tribunal. (Which seems to be a running theme with retailers, after reading some other threads here on Geekzone)

Also, that going through the Disputes Tribunal will take between 6 to 8 months to get resolved... hmmmm...

I have to wait till I hear back from them after talking to a manufacturer which should be this week. But I don't think they will offer a refund, even though I'm entitled to request one under the CGA..

I don't want to accept a replacement because I don't live in the same city as the store I purchased from, making warranty problems down the line even more difficult. And that i would like to try another brand after the one I had failed.

So what do you fellow Geekzoners think is my best way to approach this from here on out?

Send them a written letter with my request?

Take anything they offer me?

or, go see the Avengers again, because its an awesome movie?

what say you?

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#621197 7-May-2012 19:27

Wait to see what the offer is.

Failing a good outcome for you, go have a chat to the manager, take alone details from the CGA that also allow you to add reasonable costs to any claim you take to the disputes tribunal, such as charging for filing costs, rental of a replacment TV, travel costs, prepration costs etc.

Advise the manager that this will surley amount to quite a significiant amount.

BTW record all conversations you have with the manager, you may or may not want to inform the manager you are doing this, legally as you are one of the parties you don't have to inform the other party, these recordings could be quite helpful if the manager is giving out misleading information regarding the CGA.

Ask the manager for details of "all" of the dispute tribunal claims he has been involved in (he made the claim he better be prepared to back it up).

You may have to hang tough for a while if this manager decides the disputes tribunal is the way to go, but given the facts you've presented here you've got a good case

tdgeek

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#621199 7-May-2012 19:28

and they would get in touch with the manufacturer on my behalf and try and sort something out... Which i'm lucky to get considering the TV is well out of the manufacturers warranty and they don't have to help me at all...

I don't agree with this. 1. Warranty is not relevant. 2. The retailer has to honour the CGA, not the manufacturer.3. So if they can contact the manufacturer, which naturally they may do, but thats their effort, its not on behalf of you. They, the shop just have to satisfy the CGA. What they do behind the scenes is between them and their supplier. You either should get it fixed, replaced with a like device or a refund.

They have the option to fix. If they cannot, as above you can choose a like replacement, or a refund.

alasta

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#621211 7-May-2012 19:49

thecripplernz:
"If the problem with the goods can’t be

fixed, or the problem is a serious one, you

(not the trader) can choose between:

• rejecting the goods and asking for a:

– refund, or

– replacement if goods of the same type

and similar value are reasonably

available to the trader

• keeping the goods but asking for

compensation to make up for the drop in

value caused by the fault."

I have to wait till I hear back from them after talking to a manufacturer which should be this week. But I don't think they will offer a refund, even though I'm entitled to request one under the CGA..

My reading of the above is that you are entitled to insist on a refund if, and only if, the goods "can't be fixed". I always understood that the vendor has the right to offer a repair first and foremost.

networkn

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#621214 7-May-2012 19:54

Hmm I find this an interesting thread. At the end of the day I don't think it's fair to have your cake and eat it too. There is next to no margin in electronics these days, and to expect the RETAILER to bear the brunt of this for 12 YEARS is mind boggling. I believe in the CGA and have made use of it in the past, however I think the timeframes attached to the life of electronics is unreasonable and puts a much higher burden on the retailer than is fair, given they also don't likely have the same teeth back to the manufacturer. I believe reasonable life span of this TV should be no more than half of the guidelines of the CGA and I can honestly say (As I have been just this week) that you shouldn't claim reasonably beyond that (My dishwasher 5 years old blew up this week which I paid a considerable sum for). I know this tv falls into the under half lifespan, but I think you should accept any reasonable attempt to compromise on this matter.

I want to stress I do not know the OP nor have any information about this matter other than what is posted, and this is my opinion not law.

gregmcc

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#621226 7-May-2012 20:06

networkn: Hmm I find this an interesting thread. At the end of the day I don't think it's fair to have your cake and eat it too. There is next to no margin in electronics these days, and to expect the RETAILER to bear the brunt of this for 12 YEARS is mind boggling. I believe in the CGA and have made use of it in the past, however I think the timeframes attached to the life of electronics is unreasonable and puts a much higher burden on the retailer than is fair, given they also don't likely have the same teeth back to the manufacturer. I believe reasonable life span of this TV should be no more than half of the guidelines of the CGA and I can honestly say (As I have been just this week) that you shouldn't claim reasonably beyond that (My dishwasher 5 years old blew up this week which I paid a considerable sum for). I know this tv falls into the under half lifespan, but I think you should accept any reasonable attempt to compromise on this matter.

I want to stress I do not know the OP nor have any information about this matter other than what is posted, and this is my opinion not law.

That's exactly why people buy retail, so the retailer sorts out the problem. If the retailer can't get their margins right so they meet the cost of complying with the law that is their problem not yours, I doubt if they got their margins right and made a profit because of it, they would start dealing out cash to people who brought from them.

tdgeek

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#621239 7-May-2012 20:19

networkn: Hmm I find this an interesting thread. At the end of the day I don't think it's fair to have your cake and eat it too. There is next to no margin in electronics these days, and to expect the RETAILER to bear the brunt of this for 12 YEARS is mind boggling. I believe in the CGA and have made use of it in the past, however I think the timeframes attached to the life of electronics is unreasonable and puts a much higher burden on the retailer than is fair, given they also don't likely have the same teeth back to the manufacturer. I believe reasonable life span of this TV should be no more than half of the guidelines of the CGA and I can honestly say (As I have been just this week) that you shouldn't claim reasonably beyond that (My dishwasher 5 years old blew up this week which I paid a considerable sum for). I know this tv falls into the under half lifespan, but I think you should accept any reasonable attempt to compromise on this matter.

I want to stress I do not know the OP nor have any information about this matter other than what is posted, and this is my opinion not law.

Very good points

The 12 years is a guide I feel. The 12 years shouldn't be seen as the CGA success period. If there was a premium brand TV that was in great condition that failed due to a clear fault in design after a few years, you may expect some result. If it was a budget TV you may not get much action by the CGA even a couple of years after after warranty. Its case by case, the CGA is there to protect the consumer, with a reasonable solution. Consumers can't expect the CGA to be their warranty cow, but there to satisfy where a product falls short of what is reasonable. Condition, marks, dents, how much overall use all comes into it.

Be interesting to see examples of successful and unsuccessful cases.

Dunnersfella

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#621271 7-May-2012 21:17

My thoughts - especially regarding TV's and life span.

TV's have increasingly dropped in price. Yes, that is obviously due to maturing technology / lighter + thinner sets for decreased shipping costs / increased competition (both on-line and retail)... However, I believe a big chunk of the reduction in price has actually come about through cheap manufacturing methods and components.
Cheaper parts simply don't last that long...
Try picking one of those puppies up - they don't exactly exude quality. The smaller TV's are actually using plastic clips to connect the base to the panel. There's next to no connections on the back (saving at least 4 cents per panel no doubt), no aerial lead in the box yadaya.
Put simply, they're becoming commodity items.
Buy a loaf of bread, pick up a TV at the same time.

But in regards to the CGA claim...
I think 12 year life span, as noted in earlier posts is rubbish.
They just aren't made to last now, so maybe it's a note made by the CGA folk 5 years ago?
Personally, though, if a retailer is willing to back a product for another 4-5 years under an extended warranty, it's good enough to think they deem the product good enough to last at least THAT long!

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mattwnz

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#621280 7-May-2012 21:32

gregmcc:
networkn: Hmm I find this an interesting thread. At the end of the day I don't think it's fair to have your cake and eat it too. There is next to no margin in electronics these days, and to expect the RETAILER to bear the brunt of this for 12 YEARS is mind boggling. I believe in the CGA and have made use of it in the past, however I think the timeframes attached to the life of electronics is unreasonable and puts a much higher burden on the retailer than is fair, given they also don't likely have the same teeth back to the manufacturer. I believe reasonable life span of this TV should be no more than half of the guidelines of the CGA and I can honestly say (As I have been just this week) that you shouldn't claim reasonably beyond that (My dishwasher 5 years old blew up this week which I paid a considerable sum for). I know this tv falls into the under half lifespan, but I think you should accept any reasonable attempt to compromise on this matter.

I want to stress I do not know the OP nor have any information about this matter other than what is posted, and this is my opinion not law.

That's exactly why people buy retail, so the retailer sorts out the problem. If the retailer can't get their margins right so they meet the cost of complying with the law that is their problem not yours, I doubt if they got their margins right and made a profit because of it, they would start dealing out cash to people who brought from them.

+1. Plus the OP said it was only 3 + years old, not 12. A TV should last more than that IMHO, but it does depend on a case by case basis. If the TV was used 24 hours a day for 3 years, then 3 years is probably an okay life. I would expect an average tv to last at least 5 years, and for a top quality brand of higher quality specs, probably 8+ years. I think 12 years is pushing it, although LEDs should last longer than CRTs and LCD backlit ones.

The margins the retailer makes are not relevant to the CGA. If they want to under cut and reduce their margins that is the retailers problem, and I don't think that is a good way of doing business.
If a retail says they have won all cases at the DP, then I would take that as a challenge. They won't be able to say that anymore if they don't win, and I think that is a common thing for a retialer to say. That is possibly a phrase they teach them during training, which they do get for the CGA.

mattwnz

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#621281 7-May-2012 21:35

Dunnersfella: They just aren't made to last now, so maybe it's a note made by the CGA folk 5 years ago?
Personally, though, if a retailer is willing to back a product for another 4-5 years under an extended warranty, it's good enough to think they deem the product good enough to last at least THAT long!

You are right, certainly with some of the cheap brands. But then again that is the retailers problem for selling them. If they don't want problems they shouldn't sell them. Only a very small percentage of people who have a tv fail, will actually challenge the retailer with the CGA, for it to become a real problem. Many will just say that well I have got 5 years out of it, and the new TVs are so much bigger and better now, and will just buy a new one. New features help.
But if an extended warrenty covers you for 5 years, and they say that the CGA provides at least the same duration of protection of an extended warrenty, then lodgic would say that tvs should last at least 5 years.

thecripplernz

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#621283 7-May-2012 21:44

Thanks for the replies

I personally think that 12 years is way to long for a tv to be expected to survive.

If the salesperson had told me that I would get less than 4 years out of the TV, then I would have
walked out of the store.

I believe the TV is a premium product, it had a retail price of $3500... I paid less mind you.

networkn

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#621289 7-May-2012 21:54

Dunnersfella: My thoughts - especially regarding TV's and life span.

Personally, though, if a retailer is willing to back a product for another 4-5 years under an extended warranty, it's good enough to think they deem the product good enough to last at least THAT long!

To be fair, even another $150 for an extended warranty is probably more margin than was on the base TV, and it sure helps to get another $150. They are insurances, they are underwritten on the basis that 1/15 units fail and so they still make money in the meantime.

networkn

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#621290 7-May-2012 21:57

gregmcc:

That's exactly why people buy retail, so the retailer sorts out the problem. If the retailer can't get their margins right so they meet the cost of complying with the law that is their problem not yours, I doubt if they got their margins right and made a profit because of it, they would start dealing out cash to people who brought from them.

That's a pretty hard attitude to take, not really reasonable in most peoples eyes I would imagine.

I would suggest if they made RRP or close to it on each purchase they wouldn't feel so hard done by.

The number of CGA complaints for electronics has considerably increased over the past few years. It's just not reasonable to expect 12 years or even 5 in my opinion on a 42" Plasma from an unknown brand or even the entry level product on a well known and respected brand for $699.

Dunnersfella

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#621320 7-May-2012 22:31

thecripplernz:

If the salesperson had told me that I would get less than 4 years out of the TV, then I would have
walked out of the store.

I believe the TV is a premium product, it had a retail price of $3500... I paid less mind you.

Two things...
If the sales person had told you that you'd get less than 4 years out of the TV, you'd have walked?
Really?
If I had a sales person who was THAT honest, I'd probably take their word for it.

And um... at what point is a Toshiba tellie a premium product?
Sure they're not a Konka / Thomson jobbie, but they're no Schaub's!

thecripplernz

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#621357 8-May-2012 00:03

yes,

and Toshiba are a reputable brand

Bung

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#621362 8-May-2012 00:32

Dunnersfella:
Two things...
If the sales person had told you that you'd get less than 4 years out of the TV, you'd have walked?
Really?
If I had a sales person who was THAT honest, I'd probably take their word for it.

I'd expect any product to last longer than the HP deals that they are offering.

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