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jarledb

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#116247 23-Apr-2013 11:21
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So anyone know anything about DAB+ roll out in New Zealand? Will it follow the analog to digital TV switch?

It seems like DAB is doing well in Australia, about time for NZ isnt it?




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knoydart
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  #804194 23-Apr-2013 11:31
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The broadcasters don't seem to have the appetite for rolling out DAB. Spectrum is available but no one is stepping up. From a geographic point of view and the amount of driving Kiwis do, maybe a satellite based service would be an option similar to those available in the States. Then you have to look at the ecosystem of only 4 Million listeners and the costs for a satellite based system.

 
 
 
 

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  #804196 23-Apr-2013 11:34
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I do recall a Geekzone Q&A with the CEO of Mediaworks and one of the questions was this, the answer was pretty much "not interested - no money in it"

kiwirock
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  #804270 23-Apr-2013 12:50
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DjShadow: I do recall a Geekzone Q&A with the CEO of Mediaworks and one of the questions was this, the answer was pretty much "not interested - no money in it"


That pretty much sums it up. Why fix something that isn't broken? FM is in the car already :o) From a viewpoint of an ex broadcast engineer/company director:

Some smaller LPFM's have been pioneering the way with online streaming for years, and I mean trying new technologies as they arrive, not sitting with one streaming codec system for what seems like forever like the big boys. Cellular coverage is getting better and IP is the real way forward so DAB to me doesn't look that appealing.

When you consider the codecs in use are either 64Kbps AAC or 96-112Kbps Layer-2 to save every penny of bandwidth. It won't be a step up in quality. Keep in mind the storage systems are usually around 160-192 Layer-3 if new, 192-256Kbps Layer-2 if old. Then the other layers that carry audio from HQ over satellite to the regionals etc... then another lossy layer of compression to the local transmitter. So local DAB won't be doing anything other than offering more lossy compression along the way.

I've been trying for the last 5 years to convince as many independents and other engineers to store PCM should DAB start catching on. Even with TB of hard disc space, when you buy a $2,000 audioscience sound card fit for studio work, it seems a waste not to use Layer-2 compression, and why buy lots of cheap space for PCM, when you can get the cheapest and store much more with MP3, close or less quality to what you download off the Interent?

So I wouldn't expect DAB to sound to flash, just more bandwidth for more channels. Now that presents a problem in its self. I doubt they would start any new formats anytime soon, just more of the same in competition with each other. That's the way commercial radio has always worked here. I've been looking at another format since Christmas, but to be honest, I'm 85% full of doubt because it can take years to get listeners familiar with anything that strays to far from what we already have.

An LPFM in Timaru has jumped on to UHF Freeview digital with the local TV station arrangement. It's another step forward to digital but what's the interest/uptake? What's the income return?

I remember helping out with tech advice for the manager of The Wolf, a station that was the first radio station on the Sky digital platform. The format was new to New Zealand, dragging in investment was an issue and of course it's no longer around.

But to go DAB everywhere costs the broadcaster, for what income in return? I can understand National going DAB, but that's about it.

Going satellite would be more for pay per channel stations given the more bandwidth. We have a population that is used to radio for free so that won't work.

Why do I say pay per channel/format? A lot of advertising is pulled in locally with the existing broadcast paradigm. To go national means bigger costs associated to regional advertisers. Like Freeview though, who's to say being in say, Auckland, you've got your decoder set to listen to the Auckland feed of TV1 rather than Chrischurch etc...?

It would be a cost to the broadcaster, a cost to the advertising which in turn is another cost to the broadcaster... FM is here for a while yet.

There are DAB broadcasts in Auckland and Wellington as I understand, but sounds more like boys playing with their toys than something that will be taken really seriously anytime soon.



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  #804287 23-Apr-2013 13:07
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An excellent answer Gavin!  Like most people, I had assumed that DAB would be a step up in quality.  If it's going to mean more lossy compression, as we see on Mediaworks since they started their regional feeds, then stuff that.  Better to stick with good old FM which at least will work in mono in some pretty out of the way places.  DAB will be all or nothing like DTT.

kiwirock
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  #804297 23-Apr-2013 13:25
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Yes, good FM will mean less swishy music :o)

Unfortunately the image in your reply has sent half the text off my screen because it's not widescreen. Perhaps if Mauricio is reading this, could you please help fit the text back in to my screen by adjusting the image? There's no horizontal scroll when there's wide images in posts to get to the rest of the text.

Technically, DAB gives us up to 20KHz of audio bandwidth vs the 15KHz for FM. However, lower bitrate lossy taken into account, it really starts to roll-off from 15KHz anyway by the encoder during low pass filtering.

Most commercial stations are still MPEG layer-2 256Kbps. The automation systems in use such as NexGen (RCS) and their older Master Control, still use this.

In the states, very hot formats are going PCM. But then they do DAB, so they're getting wise.

There's absolutely no drive in having better quality with digital because of the bottom line, $$$. Unless you can convince a radio broadcaster a premium service will be well paid by the subscriber for the spectrum/bandwidth.

It's a real shame, it has so much potential! But I only see it useful where money's not a problem, like National or more importantly Concert. But then it's on to the next argument, actual audio processing/compression.

Even with digital TV, it hasn't stopped the loudness wars with actual audio signal compression/processing. So don't expect it to sound more natural and open via digital :o) A lot of studio production wizzes still don't the difference between VU and led meters wrongly called VU meters. So MPEG2 storage mentality and over processed audio is here to stay for some time.


grant_k
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  #804299 23-Apr-2013 13:33
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There you go Gavin, I've deleted the image out of my signature for you :)

Thanks also for the expanded answer in your subsequent post. The old-fashioned VU Meters were quite a different beast to modern LED meters which are usually Peak Programme Meters. Each have their uses, but from my observations, VU Meters more accurately reflect the perceived loudness of the audio, as against PPMs which are useful for avoiding clipping in the signal chain.

kiwirock
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  #804310 23-Apr-2013 13:53
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grant_k: There you go Gavin, I've deleted the image out of my signature for you :)

Thanks also for the expanded answer in your subsequent post. The old-fashioned VU Meters were quite a different beast to modern LED meters which are usually Peak Programme Meters. Each have their uses, but from my observations, VU Meters more accurately reflect the perceived loudness of the audio, as against PPMs which are useful for avoiding clipping in the signal chain.


The problem with PPM, as everything moves to full scale digital, dBFS meters are quite common even on broadcast consoles (mixers). So a lot of audio gets normalised now on PC to the same peak level, so the overall loudness is all over the place. Hence the requirement for more audio processing down the line to make up for the cause of storage loudness levels.

20 years ago, everything was VU based, so everything was recorded near the same loudness on tape. However the generation being brought up with digital/peak/normalisation, doesn't really understand the difference. Wrongly labeling PPM meters as VU is almost the norm now on mixers. So the term can easily be lost.

With digital, there's really no reason for it to be as loud as technically possible, other than competitiveness. This is a real issue with radio stations, something that would only spill over to DAB.



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  #804312 23-Apr-2013 13:57
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Once a year this topic comes up and normally somebody jumps in saying the Kordia trial in Wellington and Auckland is still going. I have no idea of the current status, but it could be transmitting still.

Dunnersfella
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  #804486 23-Apr-2013 19:19
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Streaming killed any chance that DAB ever had... and even then, both Impey and Turner from MediaWorks have said it's a non-happening thing. And as TRN have no commercial gain to achieve by making the move to DAB, we won't see it happening any time soon.

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  #804514 23-Apr-2013 19:53
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Dunnersfella: Streaming killed any chance that DAB ever had....


Yep

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  #804529 23-Apr-2013 20:12
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DAB+ has already been a bit of a failure in Australia as far as broadcasters are concerend. The UK is also pretty much the biggest DAB market, and many regard it as a failure in many aspects there also - it will certainly never replace FM.


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  #804551 23-Apr-2013 20:32
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I agree about streaming, with mobile data caps slowly getting bigger its as simple as say plugging the iphone into a car ipod adapter and using an app like TuneIn to listen to any station you want

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  #804566 23-Apr-2013 21:41
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DjShadow: I agree about streaming, with mobile data caps slowly getting bigger its as simple as say plugging the iphone into a car ipod adapter and using an app like TuneIn to listen to any station you want


Streaming is too dependent on 3g coverage. Try driving from Auckland to Taupo and stream.... 3G coverage comes and goes. i do stream a bit on the commute but you need a really consistent coverage otherwise it stops and starts....




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grant_k
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  #804568 23-Apr-2013 21:46
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DjShadow: I agree about streaming, with mobile data caps slowly getting bigger its as simple as say plugging the iphone into a car ipod adapter and using an app like TuneIn to listen to any station you want

So long as you don't go outside the areas where good cellular coverage exists.  I probably spend in excess of 30% of the time in such places, so for me, streaming is not going to be viable much of the time.  Good old steam radio gets the job done up here in the Far North to a much greater extent than AM ever used to.  When FM craps out, there are 1000+ tracks sitting on my USB stick available at the touch of the MEDIA button.





jarledb

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  #804571 23-Apr-2013 21:53
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I am not sure why people don't see the benefit of DAB. I think a lot of it has to do with some bad examples and also FUD from the likes of the mobile network industry.

DAB+ has a modern codec (AAC+ equivalent), and if you have at least 96 Kbit/s bandwidth you achieve FM-quality.

The true strength of DAB is that you can use single frequency networks, that things like reflections of signals on mountain walls/city walls actually strengthens the signal instead of weakening it, etc.

The problem it causes for the industry is that suddenly you can have a situation where you and your competitors all have equal signal strength and you have to compete on something other than just being heard (technically).

My experience with DAB here in Norway has been great. I can drive around in Norway without losing stations, without the tuner skipping between several transmitters and without the noise interference which is so typical for FM.

I am a sound engineer and worked 10 years in radio, and several FM transmitters that I was responsible for. What I wouldnt't have given for a network that would have given us good signal all over our county.

There are lots of ways to make sound on DAB bad, but most of the ways also make FM sound bad today, such as over compression to sound the loudest. On FM that is also done to extend coverage areas, because the noise is not as noticeable when you are compressing your sound signal heavily. With DAB there is no reason to do that.

Here in Norway there is actually an agreement between the stations to follow the same kind of loudness on DAB, so that you have the same base signal (in loudness) on all stations. And that is for both commercial and state channels.




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